Category: meet the author

Dr Rick Strassman – DMT- The Spirit Molecule

The Spirit Molecule

Dr. Rick Strassman is an American clinical associate professor of psychiatry at the University of New Mexico School of Medicine. He has held a fellowship in clinical psychopharmacology research at the University of California San Diego and was Professor of Psychiatry for eleven years at the University of New Mexico. After 20 years of intermission, Strassman was the first person in the United States to undertake human research with psychedelic, hallucinogenic, or entheogenic substances with his research on N,N-dimethyltryptamine, also known as DMT. He is also the author of DMT: The Spirit Molecule, which summarizes his academic research into DMT and other experimental studies of it, and includes his own reflections and conclusions based on this research.


Sponsors: Promo Code minddog promo code minddogtv×540742189759856640&promoCode=MINDDOG100OFF



Could psychedelics be the bridge between science and spirituality? We’ll talk about it on this episode of the minddog TV podcast

And welcome my friends to yet another episode of the mind dog TV podcast. I’m Matt nappo. Thanks for coming. It’s great to have you here. As always, we’re gonna talk about DMT. Today, if you don’t know what DMT is, you probably never listened to the Joe Rogan podcast. I only found out about DMT It’s also known as dimethyltryptamine. I hope I pronounced that correctly. It’s a hallucinogenic. psychedelic. I’m not sure if it’s clinically classified as a drug because it’s a natural occurring substance in the human body. I don’t think it can be a drug and, and be something that is naturally occurring within the human body. But my guest today is the authority on the subject is so the man who is responsible for at least Joe Rogan finding out about it. And that’s how I found out about it quickly. Just want to say here, we are not glorifying drug use. I have talked a lot about my drug use in my teen years. And I had some heavy experimentation with psychedelics, hallucinogens, whatever you want to call them, in the 70s, in my teenage years, stopped when I became an adult. Until, like 10 years later, when somebody slipped me some LSD and Stevie Ray Vaughan concert 1988. That’s the last time I did it before then probably around 78 1977 when I became interested in DMT, more so for the spiritual aspect of the experience that so many people who have done it claim and it’s kind of like the UFO thing where enough people come back with the same exact story of their experience, that it tends to lend some credibility to it. I’m extremely interested in spirituality and this whole idea of a pathway to greater understanding through what we call a pineal gland. We used to be called a psyche guy, when I was part of a cult in the 1990s, where a lot of psychics and healers would talk about this strange gland that sits in the middle of our brains behind the behind the bridge of the nose right here. And they call the psychic guy, the psyche guy. And so I became intrigued with that idea of what’s really going on back there. My guest today seems to know more than anybody in the world about this and I’m gonna make this a really short thing. Oop, there we go. Dr. Rick Rick strassman is a clinical Associate Professor of Psychiatry at the University of New Mexico School of Medicine. He had held a fellowship at the clinical psychopharmacology Research at the University of California, San Diego, and was professor of psychiatry for 11 years at the University of New Mexico. He was the first person in the United States to undertake human research with psychedelic, hallucinogenic, hallucinogenic, hallucinogenic. Can I say that substances, which is researching and dimethyltryptamine, also known as DMT, is also the author of the Spirit molecule DMT, the spirit molecule, which summarizes his research into DMT and a couple of other books, but the one I’ve read recently is called Joseph lavey escapes death seems to be a bit autobiographical. Ladies and gentlemen, please open your ears, open your minds and help me welcome in Dr. Rasmussen, my dog TV podcast. Dr. Strassman. Welcome. Thanks, Matt. Good to be here. It’s great to have you here. I’ve been looking forward to this conversation for a long time, as you heard me mentioned in the in the intro, yeah, I’m confused. Is DMT a drug? Or is it as a classified as a drug?

Dr. Rick Strassman 4:27
Well, it just depends on what you want to call it on any particular day or any particular context. If it’s being used on the street for recreational purposes, I guess you’d call it a drug. And if you’re looking at it from the point of view of being produced endogenously in the human body, you could call it a substance or compound.

matt nappo 4:50
Okay, I’m just interested. Do you think it does the government classify it as a drug So basically, it’s a controlled study. Since in if you bought it on on the street, you’d be arrested for it. Yeah, it’s a schedule one drug according to the DEA. Okay. What fascinates me about about you and the book and i’m pronouncing it Lavie. Now, all my life. I’m a New Yorker. And I’ve had plenty of friends who had that last name. And I’ve always called them levy or Levy, because that’s what they call themselves, never heard it pronounced as labor until I listened to the audio book. And I was like, that’s how you pronounce it, I am in New York, we pronounce it wrong. What I’m fascinated by is the idea of, first of all, a scientist, a medical professional, who also has an interest in spirituality. And we do today Oh, God. And and so I’m bet that interests me about you, when I talked to my bass player in my band who was Jewish, but also identifies as an atheist, and we’ve had long conversations about what it really means to be a Jew. And, and, and the belief in in the God that we call and I don’t use the word Judeo Christian, because I don’t like to separate Christian belief systems are different, but that one god that both of those religions seem to believe, and that seems to be a contradiction for science, a scientist to be going down that path. Tell me about your interest in spirituality and religion.

Dr. Rick Strassman 6:31
Um, well, I started my psychedelic research career with spiritual questions, in a way I was looking for the biological basis of spiritual experience. And I believed if you could find something going on in the brain that was occurring. Well, let me backtrack a bit. When I was in college, I was impressed with the similarities and descriptions between the psychedelic drug state and that resulting from certain kinds of meditation. So I thought there must be some common biological denominator, which was being activated or turned on as a result of either taking psychedelics or doing certain kinds of meditation. So, I started looking for what I suppose could be called the spirit molecule, even back then, you know, was there a part of the brain or substance released that, you know, was comparable to, you know, the effects of of well, which would stimulate the you know, the common experience that people described either on psychedelics or through meditation. And as you mentioned, in the introduction, I began looking at the pineal gland, because there was some evidence back then other melatonin, which is the main hormonal product of the pineal, what psychoactive This was back in the 1970s 1980s. And also the pineal gland on has a long illustrious history in in esoteric, you know, psychos, spiritualities, you know, like, the sefie wrote of Kabbalah, you know, the, you know, kept her that, you know, the crown is corresponds to the anatomical location of the pineal, the 1000 petaled, Lotus, of you know, Hindu Physiology or chakra systems, is also anatomically located there. You know, so I started off my studies looking at melatonin in the 1980s, but it was only, you know, sedating. Um, it wasn’t psychedelic at all. And, you know, by then I started to learn about DMT worked on the protocol, and began my studies in 1990. You know, so, my question other than, you know, can you get this kind of research off the ground again, after 20 years, you know, you know, my unspoken but more near and dear question was, if you know, DMT is a spirit molecule in and of itself. If you just give DMT without much in terms of your proper preparation, you’re setting up expectations. You know, when to induce a spiritual experience and the spiritual experience that I was mostly interested in interested in at the time was that of enlightenment, you know, Buddhist enlightenment as especially, you know, Zen and the kensho experience, you know, which is a unitive, mystical kind of state that there’s no self, there’s no time, there’s no space, there’s no ideas, there’s no images, there’s no feelings. It’s completely empty. And I was, you know, wondering if I gave enough, you know, DMT to people in an unstructured, but supportive environment is the pharmacology of the drug in and of itself spiritual? And, you know, so there were a couple answers to that question. The first answer is, um, that DMT isn’t inherently spiritual, it is a psychedelic, you know, drug, you know, rather, you’re rather than a man and Theo genic drug, it is only able to work on what’s already there, in your mind more or less, consciously. You know, so for example, you know, the one I, you know, near death experience in our group of volunteers occurred in a nurse with a long standing interest in the near death experience. And she’d been

Dr. Rick Strassman 11:25
studying it reading books about the N D, E. And you volunteered to be in the study, because of her belief that, you know, DMT, could you mediate certain aspects of the near death state. And also, her experience was the closest you have to the classical near death experience of any of our volunteers. You know, there was a software designer who saw, you know, the origins of ones and zeros, you know, there’s an urban shaman, you know, who was dismembered and then, you know, brought back together in a shamanic experience, you’re the one your mystical unitive kind of kensho state occurred only in one volunteer, and you this was an individual with a long standing interest in kensho, in the Enlightenment experience, and he’d been studying and you’re practicing, and you’re volunteered to have that kind of experience. And he did it. So, you know, it turned out that you know, DMT isn’t inherently spiritual, you know, but it is, you know, psychedelic, it’s mind manifesting or mind disclosing, it stimulates amplifies, makes more true, you know, things which already were existent in your mind, and you’re more or less consciously, potential, you know, which is being actual as you Yeah, so the other question or the other answer, um, is that, you know, the DMT state, you know, wasn’t anything like enlightenment experience, it was not empty, it was, you know, full of stuff. You retained your personality, there was the passage of time, there’s experience of space. There were all kinds of, you know, visual imagery. You know, there are beings with which the volunteers interacted all kinds of feelings, ideas, things like that, you know, personality was able to observe carefully and report back. You know, so the experience wasn’t at all like, the Enlightenment experience of emptiness. You know, so once I completed my study, oh, and also there was an overwhelming feeling of the state of allowing the experience of a reality more real than this one, you know, that was a, you know, compelling and quite frequent report of the volunteers. You know, so after the studies, you know, wrapped up, I started to look for other spiritual models, which might be more consistent with the kinds of effects of my volunteers and you’re responding to DMT. So as raised, you know, conservative Jewish I, you know, went through an extremely long, you know, 20 plus year detour through Zen Buddhism. And after a while, you know, the Zen, you know, model, the Zen beliefs, you know, the practice And began kind of wearing FIM. Well, you know, the bowing I was, you know, wondering about all the bowing to statues and pictures of former teachers and things, you know, to each other. You know, it was explained to me while you’re bowing, you know, to the pure essence of each other in the process, but, but but still on my thought, you know, if you’re going to bow, you know, why not bow to the most high as opposed to just this big, golden statue of Buddha? Yeah, you know, um, and also, you know, the whole idea of, you know, Buddhism, you know, not having a god, you know, I’m Jewish, you know, you know, even genetically and, you know, the constant, you know, discussion that there is no God or suddenly karma started to where it kind of thin as well. And I, you know, began asking questions, which in Buddhism are called not conducive to enlightenment? You know, for example, you know, what occurred, you know, before cause and effect it, you know, on my favorite thing, you know, if, you know, cause and effect,

Dr. Rick Strassman 16:10
you know, determines everything, you know, what determines cause and effect, you know, so, you know, that, in a way is a question about what occurred before the big bang, right? I, you know, what, just God is, you know, God, you know, temporal or are not, you know, so, you know, those kinds of questions, were discouraged in the morning, a practical approach, but still, you know, there were some strange things, which we were expected to assume or to believe, and to do, you know, within Zen practice, yeah, the other was, you know, karma is supposed to be neutral. It’s just, you know, kind of it started somehow, and then every effect has got antecedent causes, you know, but I started to wonder, as well, you know, why are things, you know, the way they are, you know, why are, you know, why are certain ideas and behaviors rewarded, and others, you know, seem to be punished. You know, like, if you’re angry, you get an upset stomach. But, you know, as opposed to, if you get angry, you know, why don’t you make a million dollars, or you grow a pair of wings, you know, so, you know, things are a specific way in existence. And so, I began, you know, thinking, you know, their karma seems to reflect, you know, the will and the power of, you know, some overarching intelligence, you know, we just got a scheme, which is supposed to benefit us, as opposed to harming us, you know, so yeah, combined with, you know, those kinds of ruminations, you’re looking for another model of spirituality as revealed through the DMT effect. I started reading the Hebrew Bible, and ended up you know, being convinced of a prophetic state of consciousness, which pervades the text, which is quite DMT, like, but at the same time is quite different because of the information contained in the Bible as compared to, you know, contained in the DMT experience. So, you know, one of the things you’ve got to work through in the text is the existence of God, like the first word or the second word, in the, in the Bible, as in the beginning, God created heaven and earth. It’s like, Who’s God? What’s God do? How does that work? Right, right. So I spent years, you know, just, you know, be the I, you know, beating my head against the wall, you know, what does, you know, this God, and I started to, you know, read the medieval philosophers, you know, who are quite sophisticated, you know, back in the day, you know, 900 to, you know, 1400 in the Common Era. Yeah. And, you know, gradually, you know, slowly but surely, I began to believe in God, you know, want to understand, you know, God’s characteristics and interaction with the world. You know, my first you know, toeholds for I’m accepting, you know, the notion of God, you came through Buddhism actually, and it was around you know, those two issues of karma. You know, who created and, you know, who sustains karma, and what’s going to exist once karma is, you know, done as everything else is done, according to the law of karma. And also, you know, why does karma seem to operate in a particular manner, right, you know, so those were the two footholds with allowed me to start thinking, Oh, you know, it must be God who created and sustains cause and effect, which works in a particular way, which, you know, reflects, you know, so to speak the mind of God.

matt nappo 20:16
Wow, that’s so interesting. Now, there’s a lot to reflect on in that answer. First of all, the idea of similarities between nd ease and the DMT experience. I think one of the differences that I’ve noticed with that is because I’ve talked to a lot of people who, you know, found God through. And he is, an atheist will convert after a many times and atheists will convert to a somewhat of a believer in something hot, bigger and higher than ourselves after an nD nD. But I know a lot of atheists who have had the DMT experience and remain atheist, but also atheist in a very judgmental way in that, well, if you believe in God, you must be an idiot, if you believe this. And especially you mentioned the Bible, they’ll they’ll bring that up, like, how could any reasonable person take the stories in there to be literal truth? And I think that’s where we get into a problem with this idea of the old man in the sky. God, do you? How do you address that? Because I don’t think anywhere in the Bible, it actually says like, oh, man in the sky. But that’s, that’s the atheist view of what the belief is, how do you how do you address that or you don’t address it?

Dr. Rick Strassman 21:44
Yeah, you’ve got to address it. And it’s kind of, you know, like a DMT experience, you need to suspend disbelief in an order, you know, to get the most out of what you’re, you know, perceiving or reading or apprehending. You know, in the beginning of my DMT studies, I was pretty skeptical of the reality or, you know, bases of people’s experiences, you know, like, you know, when they were telling me about these are being encounters, you know, these, you know, critters or bees, or robots or cactuses, and doing things and interacting with people, I thought to myself, well, it’s your brain on drugs, or as a Freudian impulses, or conflicts, you know, being represented visually and emotionally. It’s some kind of union archetype. You know, but it was anything, you know, but real. And, you my skepticism, even though I was keeping it to myself, still kind of leaked out. And the volunteers weren’t as comfortable describing the stranger parts of their experiences. And, you know, I picked up on that, and then started to, you know, treat the experiences to be as real as the volunteers believe they were, you know, like, you know, the state is quite common, or it’s because it’s consistent. It’s, you know, visual, it’s not a body. If, you know, rapidly changing, there’s beings you interact with him. You’re a bit confused, a bit anxious early on, but then it just completely opens up, you know, so, I thought, Well, okay, you know, these are, you know, this drug, you know, this compound seems to allow people to enter into free standing, completely consistent, independent universe from this one, which is more real than real. So, you know, when you start reading the Bible, you have to do the same thing, you’ve got to say to yourself, okay, you know, this is describing a universe a particular, you know, world which is more real than real for those who are in those narratives. You know, if you read about your prophecy, you know, like Ezekiel, for example. You know, he just, you know, falls down because of the intensity of the visions, and it’s the most your real, overpowering thing that’s ever occurred to him in his life. You know, so you can say, Oh, that’s just crazy. That’s just schizophrenia, you know, but you need to, you know, I guess, you know, suspend your disbelief. You could study the text carefully. You don’t you know, learn about that. character, you know, who is he he’ll? And you could enter into his mind and you see what’s going on there? You know, what’s he saying? And why? And, you know, what are the implications back then, you know, nowadays, you know, the story of Abraham, you know, the first, the first Jew, you know, Abraham is, you know, living in, you know, you know, like an idol of infested Babylonia, and he gets a call from God to go to Canaan and to worship the one God. You know, so you know, who is Abraham, you know, is, you know, like, Are there qualities of Abraham in me? You know, who were his parents, his wife, his kids, his travels, his servant, his maid servant, Ishmael, and Isaac, you know, so it’s this, it’s this free standing universe. And you could say, Oh, it’s just a bunch of, you know, hooey and promoting a genocide and the chosen people and all that. You could just say, okay, that’s fine. But what does the text actually say? And your friends on who say, Oh, you know, the Bible is just, you know, Bs, you can ask them if they’ve ever read the Bible. And if they have, if they’ve ever studied it,

matt nappo 26:18
yeah, you know, most of the time, most of the time, the answer will be very surface level reading, so and they will go right to the easiest part parts of it like, no, there’s no way no one could have had to have every species on Earth on the on the end, that kind of stuff. So I think they have a probably have not read it, but have heard the stories enough to believe they have read it, if that makes sense.

Dr. Rick Strassman 26:50
Yeah, well, you cherry pick well, right. It’s, um, you know, kind of like the story or you know, that, you know, saying your first fear is a mountain, you know, then there is no mountain then there is, you know, the first time you read the Bible, it’s, you know, literal, and it’s just, like crazy. And, you know, there’s nothing like, it’s just, you know, nonsense, and, and, you know, then once you’ve begun to study it in earnest, you can start to glean the gems of information, which are embedded in the narratives in the poetry and the wisdom and the legal code,

matt nappo 27:31
right? Part of the nd II experience seems to be precondition. In other words, if, you know, the whole idea of, if you’re, you committed suicide or tried to commit suicide, and have the NDA, you will have visions of the hell or, you know, very dark experience. And if you, you know, whatever died in an accident, or you sleep, whatever the, you know, be non suicidal way that you might have had, you tend to have a more heavenly type experience. Are there people who are in DMT, who have that DMT experimentation that have had that dark experience, the hell experience where the beings don’t seem to be friendly beings, but judgmental beings?

Dr. Rick Strassman 28:25
Well, I’m not sure if I would call them judgmental, you know, but at least aggressive, and hostile, and even harmful, um, in a way, you know, one of our volunteers was a young guy, you know, tie dye, your long hair, hippie Dude, you know, loved MDMA, had taken small doses of your mushrooms in the past, and was completely into the loving light, you know, delusion, as it were. He was, you know, hard for him to face his own your darkness, you know, so on his first, you know, large, you know, dose of DMT he was raped in Italy by crocodiles who pinned into the bed. He he couldn’t move, he was paralyzed, he couldn’t speak, he couldn’t ask for help. And, you know, the first few minutes of the DMT experience, I’m just, you know, kind of crossing my, my fingers together and you’re praying is going to go all right. And I had no idea was going on with him. And, you know, at about the 20 minute point, he opened up his eyes and said, that was the worst thing that’s ever happened to me in my life. Wow. You know, so that was, you know, one experience like that, you know, some other guy came in, um, after having a big, you know, pizza and your beer dinner the night before, because he figured DMT I could handle that. Yeah, and he was a bit hung over a bit full stop. From all that pizza and his DMT experience was rather frightening as well, this black warrior with a shield and a spear just appeared right in front of him and said You dare enter here, you know, so it would depend on your state of mind, your personality, your approach, you know, going into the study, you would need to be psychologically healthy and mature. You already mentally, physically, you know, so it wasn’t just a shirred, ecstatic beatific state, it could be quite taxing.

matt nappo 30:38
So So with that in mind, you can have a bad experience on this, is there any real therapeutic use, because in therapy, the last last thing you want to do is drive somebody further into a dark place? I mean, the, the whole purpose of therapy is to get them to a brighter, lighter place. And it seems like, you’re never sure what you’re going to get. And so is there a real therapeutic use for the empty?

Dr. Rick Strassman 31:10
Yeah, well, there’s two important issues there, you know, one of them is, you know, the whole notion of psychotherapy, and, you know, if you’re going to be, you know, successful doing psychotherapy, you need to increase at least usually, you need to increase slightly the amount of anxiety that you know, that the patient is feeling, I’m in order to spur them to start challenging themselves, to look at stuff that they would rather not look at our you know, think about things they would rather not think about. You know, so you want to increase their, their anxiety, but not too much. Otherwise, they’ll just be too anxious and won’t be able to attend, or they’ll get spooked and flee. You know, so you wouldn’t necessarily start off if you were doing, you know, psychotherapy with DMT, you might not start off with a full dose, you might start off with a lower dose that just kind of gets the wheels turning in a different way. You know, so that’s, you know, one issue, um, you know, there’s another issue, you know, specific to DMT, you know, which is it’s extremely short duration of action, it only is effective for maybe 1520 minutes or so, that to me. Right, right. That’s why I used to be called, you know, the business man’s trip. You know, but, you know, there are a couple of groups overseas that are developing a continuous infusion model of DMT. You know, so you could keep somebody in that state for an hour, you know, two or three, and you could turn it up, you could turn it down, you know, depending on the content of the material coming up in psychotherapy, you could turn it off and just interact with the patient. You know, in a sober state, it wears off so quickly. And you could do that for a few hours. And it might be extremely useful or you know, psycho therapeutically. Yeah, the other notion which is a bit more of a mind, bender is the whole field which is coalescing around the issues of neuroplasticity and neurogenesis. neuroplasticity is where a compound or activity increases the complexity and the number of connections between nerve cells. And the other notion is neurogenesis is neurogenesis, which he points to the growth of new neurons from stem cells. And the psychedelics seem to induce you know, both neuroplasticity and neurogenesis and ketamine also does as well. And your ketamine is a psychedelic in a way and it’s an anti depressant. And you may not really need to attain to any particular subjective experience with ketamine in order to still see an anti depressant response. You know, so, you know, people are starting to think, you know, do you need to experience anything subjectively in order for these drugs to work in terms of anti depressant effect? You know, is that all going on behind the scenes? Is it just the stimulation of neurogenesis and neuroplasticity? You know, so the psychedelics also do that and in the same time course You know, like ketamine, you know, so yeah, there’s a, you know, move to develop non psychedelic psychedelics, which stimulate the same parts of the brain and stimulate your neuro and stimulate, I, you know, the plasticity and the stem cell affects you without any subjective effects. You know, so it’s a strange thing, you know, some people are saying, Oh, you need the subjective experience, if you’re going to be getting any healing, and others are saying, no, that’s not necessary. It just occurs behind the scenes with, you know, sprouting neurons, you know, that you’re not aware of, until after the fact.

matt nappo 35:43
But, well, part of this, I have to think that you’re pretty brave in going down this route, and even suggesting that there might be a spirit module molecule. And I know, you know, you’re not the first person in the history of mankind to kind of come up with that idea. But being a medical doctor and a professor and you know, what’s there any kind of just ambivalence about you know, what, what your colleagues might, because I talked to a lot of people on here, we’ll talk about consciousness talk about spirituality all the time, but most of them aren’t rooted in science and have nothing, no, nothing to lose by going down that path. We went. And so when you were first starting in this, was that a concern for you to even broach this subject?

Dr. Rick Strassman 36:41
Yeah, yeah, it was quite a concern. And I kept the spirituality aspect completely to myself. I never really talked about it with my colleagues, with my, you know, regulators with the people, you know, funding my studies, it was all strictly in psychopharmacology. You know, dose response work, endocrine results, cardio, vascular effects, those kinds of things. Yes, yeah. So I really stay clear of both spirituality and psychotherapy, you know, because a lot of the reasons or, you know, one of the reasons Anyway, these kinds of studies ended in the early 1970s is, you know, because of the spiritual flavor that was being, you know, kind of permeating, you know, the psychotherapy research, like it was, you know, mystical experiences, you know, which were, you know, curing depression, or OCD or end of life care, as opposed to, you know, psycho pharmacological effects. And, you know, regulators back then, especially back then, we, you know, we’re not going to teen on your mixing categories like this, you know, it’s either your psychotherapeutic or it’s spiritual. And, you know, I’m, I learned my lesson or, you know, I’m, I learned the lesson, you know, that the first generation of scientists, researchers learn is to just keep it psychopharmacological, you know, so, it wasn’t until I stopped my studies, and began, you know, looking at, you know, the, you know, the largest and broadest container, you know, to understand the experiences and, you know, that I started to speak more openly about, you know, my interest in the spiritual aspects of these compounds,

matt nappo 38:52
right, when we talk to people who were come from those fringes on this program, and I don’t even really know if I that’s disrespectful to say those fringes, people who have different belief systems than mainstream religion, about what what the experiences they took the word that always comes up is consciousness and it comes up in your book, too. And but in in terms of the separation of consciousness from the body, and I’m still trying to nail down exactly what consciousness is. We use the word so much. Can you help me out with that at all?

Dr. Rick Strassman 39:35
Um, probably, you know, not too much. Well, you know, consciousness, I suppose it’s, you know, like pornography, right? You can’t define it, but you know it when you see it, right. Yeah.

matt nappo 39:48
Yeah. Time displacement stuff, I understand. But it’s still when we’re talking about what consciousness is. I mean, cuz I it feels like a scientific way. of saying spirit without saying spirit?

Dr. Rick Strassman 40:04
Well, yeah, it, you know, is pretty complicated. Well, well, you know, when you’re a medical student, and you’re going on around, you know, they speak about consciousness, you know, what is the state of consciousness of your, of your, of your patient? Um, is a stable and alert, is it drowsy? Is it confused? Um, is it asleep? Is it in coma responsive or not? You know, so, it’s a you know, medical expression um, at least in you know, within the medical you know, context you know, a lot on a spectrum of alertness to coma and stability um, is at a stable level of consciousness or is it fluctuating Are you alert for a few minutes and then you get drowsy or fall asleep, you become alert again, you know, consciousness within your psychology, more partakes of awareness, attention, those kinds of things, right. And yes, in spiritual circles, it can assume, you know, your more abstract, you know, kinds of properties, like, you know, being elevated or being, you know, dance those kinds of expressions. Your spiritual is no complex term to and, you know, I usually like to call it our feelings or thoughts or behaviors or perceptions, which you partake of the elevated, the non ordinary, the special, the unique, the memorable, the more real than real. You know, so you have to be conscious in order to have a spiritual experience, you know, so that, you know, plays in, in, in to the definition as well,

matt nappo 42:22
right. And part of part of this whole idea about separating consciousness from the body. It’s confusing, because I’m thinking of the, the psychoactive effect of DMT seems to be opening up the pineal gland, I’m guessing, to experience something that is external, not internal. That’s the part that that confuses me. Because if I can work a really short story, and again, for the people on YouTube who monitor me, I’m not glorifying drug use. In the early 70s, mid 70s. I did LSD at Carlos Santana concert. And I was brought up in a supposedly Catholic New York Catholic upbringing, but what that really means is you don’t have religion, you don’t talk about religion, you don’t talk about faith it, it’s just a tag we put on you, you’re not going to go to church, you’re not going to read any Bible, you’re not gonna do any of that stuff. And don’t talk about it with your friends, because they’ll just, you know, they’ll tune you out. So I we were at a Carlos Santana concert with a girl who was in Catholic school, but still not religious. And we both had the same experience of telepathic communication on LSD, what we what we we are sure that we were having a conversation, and both of us felt like we were having the same conversation that like, I think you’re saying one thing and one thing and we’re after we said, Yeah, that was great. We actually could recount our conversation that we had without speaking a word. And so I, this this idea of, is it out there doors in an internal experience? is a drug doing something to our brain to make us believe something is happening externally? Or is it really an external experience? And it’s just opening up a pathway? Did you gain any, you know, definitive belief about what what’s really happening? Is it an internal experience, or is there really something out there that we are tapping into?

Dr. Rick Strassman 44:27
Um, yeah, well, yeah. Well, well, that’s an important question. And, well, yeah, before we, we go there, let me you know, clarify or shed some light on, you know, the notion of, you know, consciousness, leaving the body in my volunteers. You know, I think, you know, a more precise description of what took place is that people lost awareness of their body. They, you know, they were no longer aware of their bodies. You know, like with ketamine as well, you’re unaware of your body just.

matt nappo 45:07
So that’s different. I don’t mean to interrupt, but that’s different from the MDD nd experience where they believe that above their body and could look down and see it, so they’re conscious of their body.

Dr. Rick Strassman 45:19
Right? Yeah, there was no one with you know, that kind of experience in our group, you know, that, you know, they could view their bodies in from a distance, or they traveled, you know, like, you know, downtown Albuquerque to look around. Yeah, so, um, you know, so is the content of the experience in your mind? Or is? Or are you just able to perceive things which drops out of your mind? You know, because of the alteration in your brain chemistry? Yeah. And we just don’t know. I mean, it’s really impossible to say, you know, your experience of telepathy? Yeah, you know, that would point you to a model that proposes that you’re perceiving things which aren’t, you know, generated within you, you’re just in perceiving rather than, you know, generating it, you know, so, you know, that would be consistent with an external, you know, world that you’re now able to tap into, you know, the other model is the neuro theology model, which is, you know, this is your brain on drugs, you know, there are certain parts of your brain being, you know, dinged by the drug, and you’re generating, you know, the impression of, you know, reading your friends, your mind at the time,

matt nappo 46:44
right. And so, and part of the, the thing that confused, again, further complicates that is, we think both of us were taught never really, or conditioned, never really talked about being spiritual with that the conversation about it didn’t happen for 10 years after. So we were both kind of remembering the experience of what it what it was because she bade, I basically heard her telling me, we need to be up front in the front row, can I get on your shoulders, and I just lifted her up on my shoulders and ran to the front row. And we both remembered it that way. But 10 years can be a long time. And so the question really is to people on DMT. And I guess it would only happen on low doses, where you don’t have that experience of losing losing connection to your body, have any of those telepathic kind of, you know, experiences that part where I feel I can communicate without speaking?

Dr. Rick Strassman 47:43
Um, well, we only gave you know, DMT to one person at a time. You know, so, you know, there was never a case for people, you know, to be in that same stone space and interacting in that space, you know, with their minds only, you know, the closest thing might be one of our volunteers was, you know, sometimes asked to do a psychic work for the police, you know, to locate missing people. And so she was hoping on her DMT experiences to be able to make contact with those missing people. And it didn’t occur. So yes, and no one and it was a you know, didn’t work out

matt nappo 48:33
big letdown for the people who want to believe in the psychic experience right there. And I’m sure most any of them who are listening to that are waiting for you to say, and it did in your hands, her ability to find missing people. And we are kind of short on time here. And I wish I had you for three hours. But I want to be respectful of your time. I want to talk about the book. The other book, not the spirit, my my new book, The Joseph lavey. if I’m pronouncing that right way we escaped death. Yeah, difficult for me. I’ve just conditioned for 60 years to be saying levy. It seems autobiography, autobiographical, it seems like it’s, it’s definitely you. If so, if I’m writing that, why even bother with the pseudonym.

Dr. Rick Strassman 49:28
Right, right. Well, the well, you know, pronouncing the last name lavey. As you know, based on you know, the spelling in the Bible. The Hebrew spelling is um, is Lavie, which would be you know, you know, that’d be hard, you know, but I, you know, wanted to retain the verbalization anyway, right. Well, it’s completely autobiographical. But yeah, it describes You know, bad tooth procedure that just kind of, you know, took me down in so many hellish rabbit holes. I swore if I ever survived, I would write about it. Because it was just impossible to make this stuff up. So yeah, you know, what I tell people is everything which occurred to the protagonist occurred to me, and every, you know, thought that passed through his mind and passed, you know, through mine as well. But still, it’s a snapshot. It’s, you know, it’s a facet of my personality, as opposed to me. Well, you know, Philip Roth always used to be asked, you know, what’s the difference between you and Alexander Portnoy? And he’d say, I’m not Alexander Portnoy. You know, so, it’s the same thing. You know, I’m not Joseph lavey. But still, I couldn’t have written that book without being me. You know, why did I, you know, disguise things and names and places? Well, you know, with respect, you know, to the places I don’t, you know, paint the healthcare where I live in a very good light. And

matt nappo 51:13
I wanted to talk about it. But yeah, I’m sorry to interrupt.

Dr. Rick Strassman 51:16
Yeah. And I was concerned, if I said, Oh, it’s, you know, my hometown, and this is the name of the hospital. And if I ever needed to go to that hospital, they’d say, oh, you’re the guy that just completely trashed us, we’re not going to look after you. You know, it’s, you know, difficult to imagine they could have offered worse care, you know, than they did otherwise. But still, you know, they just might refuse to see me. The other is, you know, that, you know, there’s some, you know, some personal stuff, friends and family, women.

matt nappo 51:50
It’s an uncomfortable read, and some of the things I wish you would have kind of disguise. I mean, for the non medical people, people who might be a little bit squeamish, squeamish? Yeah. Some of the things in there are a little bit too detailed and too real for a guy like me. And I worked in pathology and did autopsies for many years. And so you would think, but your book definitely got me. Wow. But, um, the idea of your situation there, I had a friend, who, when I started to read the book, and I’m like, this is Andy story, he started with this tooth the same way the bad crown, ended up going through all the things that you went through. So you’re not alone in that. But on the healthcare thing a couple of weeks ago at Lee Tomlinson on who was a former corporate guy in television, and also a very successful guy who went through a lot of not quite just up rabies, struggles with the healthcare system, but some struggles with the healthcare system. And he came out and wrote a book about the lack of empathy. And he used that word, probably 1000 times in his book about the lack of empathy in the healthcare system. When I read your book, it felt it felt like I was talking to him all over again, about this chronic state of people. People get in doctor and I don’t have to tell you, doctors and nurses get into the field because they want to be helpful. They want to help people they want to, you know, be heroes. And then at some point along the line, it seemed like a lot of them, whether it’s because overworked stressed, the system that they’re in, seems to beat the empathy out of them. your take on that?

Dr. Rick Strassman 53:45
Yeah, I think that’s true. And if there’s one thing well, there was incompetence, like there was gross incompetence, which was difficult for me as an academic physician, you know, to count an ensign, I wasn’t very subtle about my suggestions for them, you know, kind of increasing their game, you know, upping their game, you know, but, you know, the empathy was, yeah, it was really lacking. And, you know, the nurses, you know, their radiology, well, well, the radiology department was great, you know, they were kind, supportive walk me through everything. I was cold, they put a blanket on me and stuff like that, you know, but everybody else was just out to lunch. You know, they forgot about me when I was getting a respiratory therapy on your treatment, you know, they just left me, you know, they just left the machine in there. going and going and going and there’s no more medication there is going go so I just unplugged it. Yeah. And you’re like half a day later and they say, Oh, we never pick this up. Did we? Yeah. So yeah, you know, if you see enough difficult patients, if you fail in your duties or your responsibilities, easier, your own expectations, you know, for helping people. You know, you, you begin to realize that only a job as opposed to you making your life worthwhile. All kinds of things like that. You start burning out. Yeah, you know, so I stopped your practice, you know, my own psychiatry practice, you know, when I started burning out, and I lost empathy, you know, like I had been, you know, working with your psychiatric patients for 30 years. But, you know, one thing I was smart, around was never working full time seeing patients, I only worked in three, four days a week. Otherwise, you just get overwhelmed. You just have too many people’s problems in your mind. You know, so I always had other things going on, I was living in beautiful places that I could, you know, drive around, you know, hike around you. But after a certain point, I was at a clinic between Santa Fe and tau, it’s a small town called es es Mineola. And it was the most hardcore group of patients I’ve ever had, you know, murderers. Just a lot of murderers, actually. And unbelievable amounts of you know, drug abuse and domestic violence and intergenerational abusive is just nuts. And after your tears at that, I had said, I don’t really want to hear about these things anymore.

matt nappo 56:35
Yeah. And I can understand that, yeah,

Dr. Rick Strassman 56:38
yeah. You know, so, you know, my contract was up, I said, I’m taking a break. And that break has become the 13 years now.

matt nappo 56:45
So I think it’s really important for medical professionals to read your book. I do. But the question I have for you is, and I don’t know if you can really answer this because you seem healthy now and probably haven’t. Get First of all, the book is just so frustrating. You just feel like my god is this is and I imagine you going through it probably said that 1000 times, is this ever going to end? The torture, you see personal physical torture, you seem to be enjoying? But do you have any sense that the medical profession, the medical industry, how we care for people? Has it improved since that time or not?

Dr. Rick Strassman 57:24
Well, I think, you know, small town, you know, health care, you know, generally, I mean, it’s a burnout. You know, I live in a small town, like, well, you live in a certain small towns, you know, like upper crust, your retirement, small towns like towns, you know, for example, you know, it’s a very small town with, you know, great positions and a great hospital. Yeah, yeah. But that is the exception. And you’re like, I live near them? Well, you work? Well, well, so I live, you know, near that, you know, the Navajo reservation, and it’s impoverished, and it’s really hard to attract physicians out here, your nurses and whatnot. Yeah, you know, so the healthcare is pretty poor, in small towns, especially if they’re extractive industry, kind of towns, you know, non University kind of towns, you know, without the kinds of things which appeal, you know, to, you know, well educated people. Yeah, and I think, you know, health insurance is just grim. You have to spend all your time, you know, begging for treatments or prescriptions to be filled in those kinds of things. Yeah, I don’t think it’s getting any better. And that’s

matt nappo 58:43
a shame and something, you know, we talk a lot about health care in this country, but it’s not just the insurance and how we’re going to pay for it that matters, I think, the approach to burning out doctors and nurses, to the point where they, they are not angels anymore, they’re just, you know, overworked, angry people, like the rest of us is the probably the worst thing we could do for the country in terms of health care, and I think that needs to be addressed as much as the financial part of it, and how we pay for all that we agree.

Dr. Rick Strassman 59:16
Yeah, and I think, you know, the, you know, the whole concept of electronic medical records has been a really mixed blessing. You can get your hands on, you know, medical records, you know, much easier now, you know, but at the same time, the amount of time you need to spend entering and checking boxes and all that on your computer after you, you’re done. You’re seeing a patient. It’s just really hard to do. You know, if you’re a large clinic with a lot of staff, you can hire a you know, somebody, you know, to take transcription, and you know, they can enter all that stuff in the computer, you know, but if you’re a solo practitioner, it’s important community, you’re stuck in bringing home an enormous amount of work, you know, much more than was the case, it’d be the instance, no

matt nappo 1:00:09
doubt about it. My wife is a nurse and her normal working hours at 40 hours a week. But the report work that she has to do is another 40 hours a week she she spent the equal time after she’s all done with her, doing her treatments and stuff with the reports. And so I feel that I hear it. And I think that’s something that needs to be addressed. I want to be respectful of your time. I know, you’re very busy man and very wanted on a lot for a lot of reasons. Not wanted into the way that guy in posters. But I do appreciate your time here. Just Finally, on the DMT thing. Do you feel like you’ve made you come to any, like real? Will enlightenment through your own experimentation About what? What’s really going on? Or? You know, I know that’s a loaded question like, but I’m so curious, this is why I want to do DMT. And I just want to do it once, just to see what that experience is. Did you out? Do you have any feeling like that you’ve been enlightened? beyond what I know right now from interviewing people?

Dr. Rick Strassman 1:01:27
No, not really. Well, you know, a couple of years ago, a study came out from the University of Michigan, demonstrating, you know, concentrations of DMT in the mammal brain, which are as high as serotonin, for example, which then, you know, points to the possibility of a DMT neurotransmitter system. And you’ve got to wonder, you know, what, you know, that might be doing in the brain? And, you know, what is your mediating, and your the hallmark of a DMT experiences is more real than real, you know, so it’s, you know, attempting to speculate that the role of a putative DMT neurotransmitter system is to mediate our ongoing sense of reality, you know, which is a very strange thought, because, you know, then you need to wonder, what’s your regulating the substance that’s regulating our feeling of reality? So that’s where it gets pretty spooky.

matt nappo 1:02:29
Does? Yeah. Wow. So I think the the, the big conclusion here with with today’s is really a big chicken and egg discussion going around in circles about, and I don’t think it’s ever going to end and so I feel like humanity is never going to get any closer. It’s like, you’ll know, when you die. What what happens after this? Or what goes on?

Dr. Rick Strassman 1:02:56
Yeah, yeah. And I think you know, you know, contemplating or wondering about what occurs after you die, it’s kind of moot. You know, it isn’t all that important in a way, you know, you’ve got no control over it. You know, nobody really knows what it’s like, you know, so, you know, that’s, you know, where the importance of, you know, living your life as best as you can, you know,

matt nappo 1:03:19
I get it. Yeah, and I but that fear of the unknown is what drives our curiosity. And that’s why I think we all want to know, I do appreciate your time here, and I’m gonna let you go. But I do want to say I will be continuing to suggest the books and promote the books, and I wish you great success. And And listen, if you ever have anything, like, be come across any big epiphany that you would love to share with me. I would love to hear that. Sure. Good. I’m so curious about this stuff. Thank you for coming. Have a great day. Well, thanks, man. Take care. Afterwards, Rick strassman. Folks, I wish we had three or four hours with them. I know you do, too. I feel like we were just scratching the surface there. But the overall conclusion I think, for me is some things are unknowable. As much as we want to know, I still I you know, that hasn’t deterred me from really wanting to have that one short, 15 minute experience with DMT. Again, for the YouTube folks, I’m not glorifying the experience. I’m not recommending anybody else do it. not suggesting that people go out and look for illegal substances. I’m just I’m a little disappointed that the government does classify it as a controlled substance and a drug but so I would love to hear your thoughts on it. Write to me at info at mind dog TV. com info at mind, dog Please remember to check out Dr. strassman books. One more time. We got this DMT the spirit molecule and Joseph lavey escapes death which is you know what, that’s a real hard Read and frustrating read about you, you should have some empathy before you even open the cover of that book because it’s a really hellish experience. I mean hell on earth. He talks about you know, we don’t worry about what’s going to happen if you die because it seems to me he went to hell him in back in this lifetime on it during this life and that’s my takeaway from that book that’s my great book but not to be read on the cold heart because he does go through some and it is extremely frustrating you just like you just wanted to be suffering to end this great book. So anyway, that’s our program for today. tonight. I have Joseph Serra with me, who has written a book called The devil pulls the strings and puts things with spirituality, and time travel and all this kind of stuff and should be an interesting way to end this very strange week with psychics, palm readers, BMT discussion, scientists who are doing studies on Gen Z. It’s been a very full week of very wide subjects, that you can make infection come and talk to me. Round Listen to me, listen to Now listen to me, listen to me now.

Transcribed by

Meet The Author – Kayla Perrin – Romance, Mystery/Suspense and Mainstream fiction

Kayla Perrin is a multi-published and USA Today and Essence ® bestselling author with over forty books, for major publishing houses including St. Martin’s Press, HarperCollins Publishers, Kensington Books, Harlequin, Ballantine and Simon & Schuster. Kayla is published in a variety of genres, including romance, mystery/suspense and mainstream fiction. She has been featured on television shows such as Entertainment Tonight Canada, Who’s Afraid of Happy Endings (Bravo documentary about the romance genre), A.M. Buffalo, and the CTV News (among others). She has also been featured in Ebony magazine, Romantic Times magazine, The South Florida Business Journal, The Toronto Star, The Hamilton Spectator and many other Canadian and U.S. publications. She has been a guest on many radio shows (including CBC). In October 2007, she was featured in the Italian version of Vanity Fair after speaking at a women’s conference in Matera. Her works have been translated into Italian, French, German, Spanish and Portuguese.

Please visit her website at


Sponsors: Promo Code minddog promo code minddogtv×540742189759856640&promoCode=MINDDOG100OFF

Automated transcript:

Unknown Speaker 0:02
. Kayla, welcome.

Unknown Speaker 5:08
Thank you for having me. It’s my pleasure to have you now how have we figured out that eastern standard time and Eastern day? They don’t know. They don’t. They don’t coexist. I, you know, I’ve done that for years trying to not confuse people, because if I put Eastern Standard Time, they’re gonna think it’s an hour up because Eastern State with we’re actually at our different standard from day like diamonds an hour difference. So I tried to unconfuse people, but sometimes it confuses people. I understand that. I don’t know how many people understand the difference between standard time and Daylight Time. We just don’t. It’s Eastern time. And when it changes from Eastern Daylight Time to savings, I’m still calling it just Eastern time. And that’s probably what I should do. Just Eastern. Right. So

Unknown Speaker 5:57
okay. Is it called Eastern Daylight Time for everybody? Once it’s daylight savings time? Is that what you’re saying?

Unknown Speaker 6:03
Yeah, except, you know what, I don’t know if it’s the same in Canada, that might be the issue. But yes, it’s Eastern Daylight Time from from now for everybody who set who does that book. There are parts of the United States who don’t do that. So like parts of Arizona and New Mexico don’t Yeah.

Unknown Speaker 6:19
I thought last week that I missed an interview, because when I looked at said Eastern Daylight Time, and then I looked it up and it said it was an hour earlier and I was like, Oh my god, I missed the interview. But then I hadn’t. So I couldn’t figure it out, you know?

Unknown Speaker 6:38
But no, it’s always it’s Eastern Daylight Time here. Now, eastern standard time doesn’t exist until we get to November.

Unknown Speaker 6:45
I didn’t know that. So see something new every day? Well, I’m in Eastern Daylight Time. Okay, good. Yeah,

Unknown Speaker 6:50
I’m gonna learn something new today. So I guess I probably gonna learn a lot. I’m not you know, they say shoot you when you first wake up is the best time to learn something new. So I guess I’m ready. I’m ready.

Unknown Speaker 7:01
Do you have your coffee as it seems you do?

Unknown Speaker 7:04
I do. I’m sorry. I did not bring any for you. I’m sorry. Oh, yeah. So you just did a television interview? What was that for?

Unknown Speaker 7:14
It was for I believe, one of the the news networks here CTV, which is a really big news network. It’s the one I watch. And it was an affiliate out in Alberta. But it’s going to air tonight. And as these things happen, it might get picked up across other affiliates across the country. Let’s hope.

Unknown Speaker 7:30
Right? What is the via event? Do you have a book coming out now? Cuz I haven’t found anything. That’s a new release. Do you have something coming up? Very soon tonight. Tomorrow? Well,

Unknown Speaker 7:41
it came out last week, actually. And it’s for Mother’s Day. Sorry about this, like, okay,

Unknown Speaker 7:45
direct? Yeah,

Unknown Speaker 7:47
yeah, a second chance for love. So it was released, you know, just last week in time for Mother’s Day. So people could have ordered it for Mother’s days. Still, of course can order it. But the theme is for different stories that feature mother’s in some way or capacity. And there are four different connecting stories in that the characters make an appearance in each novella, even though like I had my own story featuring my hero and heroine, but her friends are the other heroines in the book. So each character makes an appearance and the other one stories, we’ve created a sense of community in the fictional seaglass Bay. That’s super interesting. Sounds

Unknown Speaker 8:28
like it would be a challenge with from the logistic side of how you make that work with the other authors Am I am I over complicating it? Because it’s No,

Unknown Speaker 8:40
you’re right. It is a challenge. And I think probably the biggest challenge came to the editor. Because as she read each story and then if she saw the inconsistency is when she said a weight and story one, this happened. And in story for this or like this characters describe this way. Or in my story in particular.

Unknown Speaker 9:01

Unknown Speaker 9:02
created a an element where I used there was a nosy ants from another story and I brought her into my story to kind of metal with my characters, but then the timing, didn’t work for the neck character story. So there was a little bit of finessing and making things work in that sense. Yeah, definitely. Well, I

Unknown Speaker 9:20
think Carla Lynn Webb is the only one who has not been on my show so far. Do you know the other lady, other authors?

Unknown Speaker 9:29
I I’ve met them all virtually. I had not known them before this, but those three are actually good friends and they’ve known each other about 20 years. Oh, yeah, I was brought into this with them like they they’re used to working with each other. And they’ve now adopted me so that’s good.

Unknown Speaker 9:48
You know what I’m finding and and correct me if I’m wrong about this, because people in the creative arts and we’re from people on the audio side, we’re showing the book cover and from the website Right now because the extra that I grabbed wasn’t was not loading in for some reason. So I went to the website. So we’re showing the cover of the book. But people in the Creative Arts General can be pretty catty. But I think some reason, authors seem to be more supportive of each other. Maybe it’s just my illusion. I’m just wondering how real my perception is of that. Authors seem to be far less catty, far less jealous and envious and backbiting and all that kind of stuff than say, comedians, musicians, filmmakers, and that kind of stuff.

Unknown Speaker 10:34
To some degree, you know, there’s definitely, I think, probably because we work alone for the most part, you would say there’s less of that cattiness. But you know, there are times when, you know, if you hear that one author got a really great deal. I mean, we are supportive, but of course, there’s going to be some envy, you know. But then there’s also that sense of pride, like and saying, Oh, I know, that person. For example, right now bridgerton, that the number one Netflix series, is, has been is created by an author friend that I’ve known for years, we were pregnant together. At one point, we were writing for the same publisher. And now she has the number one series on Netflix in the history of Netflix. So yeah, what I love that success. Sure, but you know what, I’m thrilled for Julia? It’s like, absolutely amazing. And you know, you can’t help but be happy for her. You know, it’s got to happen to someone. You want it to happen to some point but I doesn’t detract from the the pride I feel and Well, yeah, if

Unknown Speaker 11:36
you definitely seem like you have enough to be proud of I mean, your your resume or your your short, but short version of your bio, is one of the more impressive ones that I’ve read from any of the officers and I’ve interviewed probably more than 250 officers now. Wow. Yep. So congratulations.

Unknown Speaker 11:56
Thank you. And I think that’s a good point, it’s to remember what you’ve accomplished, because it’s, it’s always easy to look at someone else and say, Oh, look, they did that. But then you go back and say, you know, I’ve done this and be proud of what you’ve done, and just keep keep working, we all of our stories are going to be different. And none of us knows what’s around the corner. So you know, you just keep, keep doing what you’re doing. And as long as I’m in the game, you know, when I’m adding if I’m if I’m no longer getting contracts, that’s what I’m going to feel bad. But as long as they’re still publishing my books, I’m good.

Unknown Speaker 12:24
Right? Well, before we move on to exactly, cuz there’s a bunch of questions I had, including what mainstream fiction? Yes, yeah. You know, I want to talk about your writing and the genres and where you get your characters and all that stuff from, but we have a lot of aspiring writers, people who are writing their first book, or have published a couple of books, my audience is full of these people who really are interested in becoming authors, this just or they’re just starting out or been in the game for a little while, and are extremely frustrated by the self publishing process. And all it be illusions of, I’m gonna just publish a book and become a sell, best seller and open, it’s gonna be calling me and whatever. What can you say to those people to give them either encouragement, or a taste of what the reality of life is? You know what, I

Unknown Speaker 13:23
think that everybody has to realize that behind the book is hard work. You know, so I’ve heard and I have a friend who said this, this very specifically to me, she asked me to help edit one of her books, and I did. And then she’s like, I’m going to put this out, I’m going to make $100,000, you know, just like, she mentioned a certain author, and it’s not fiction. She’s doing nonfiction in the self help arena. And I thought, Well, wait a minute, you don’t even you have no following. You have nothing. You’ve mentioned someone who’s fairly, you know, as well known enough? How do you think you’re just gonna come up with a self published book and make $100,000 you know, like this. And so people can have unrealistic expectations. It’s not just putting a book out there. And especially now with self publishing, pretty much everybody’s putting a book out there, you know, everybody and their dog. So you have to a put out a good book, you got to make sure you put in the work to write a good book, you need to make sure that you’re figuring out your craft, because you know, it to me, it’s a little irritating, that everybody thinks they can write a story, just because you can write like, because you’re just because you’re literate. You know, there is a craft to it. And that’s why, you know, people, that’s why a lot of people got rejected before they were self publishing, because you put something out, and it wasn’t well put together, maybe your characters were lacking, or the plot was lacking. So you have to invest the time in either taking some courses to help you in those areas, if you’re lacking to bring other people in to help critique it. You know, find editors don’t just put something out in unexpected to sell that you haven’t put much effort into. And then when you have when you put the book out, you’re gonna need to figure out how to promote it. So you’re going to either have to be doing a lot on social media, maybe hire someone to help you get out there. But, you know, it’s it’s a tough game. And there’s more, there are more people in it now. So, you know, it requires some hard work as well as the talent,

Unknown Speaker 15:14
right to do the major publishing houses depend on you working as hard to promote it as if you were self published?

Unknown Speaker 15:22
Well, you know, they do, yes or no, yes, it they love that you promote your stuff. And when I first came out of the gate, I was promoting everywhere, and I was going to every event and the publishers loved that, you know, in some way to take their job away from them a little bit. But they still also do the big things, which is to get, you know, your books into bookstores. And it is really hard for a self published author to do that. So just by being published with St. Martin’s Press, I’m guaranteed I can go into a bookstore and find my book, which, you know, if you’re self published, and the book buyers don’t know about you and bookstores don’t know about you, you can’t get that foot in the door. But terms of in terms of promotion, like getting you on shows and so forth. It’s often the publisher who’s best at that or you hire an independent publicist to help you do that.

Unknown Speaker 16:12
Or when you were describing the B sea of people who are self publishing today. Yeah, it reminds me a lot of podcasting since the since the lockdown started and all that stuff. We’ve had two new podcasts every minute. So yeah,

Unknown Speaker 16:30
Yes, exactly. And just because you have a microphone, like you said, just because you can write doesn’t mean you’re a writer, or an author. Just because you have a microphone and speak doesn’t mean you’re naturally a broadcaster and know the broadcasting game. And so I resonate with that. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker 16:49
Yeah, yeah. So now, tell me a little bit about where you learned your craft from Why were you always a? Was it your dream as a little girl to grow up to be an author?

Unknown Speaker 17:02
It was I always loved stories. And I was writing from the moment I could hold a pencil. And in fact, my aunt tells me a story that I guess they had recorded. They were recording me on like a tape recorder. And I was like, let me tell you a story. And I was five years old. And of course, no one, the tape, I guess was lost or destroyed. But I would love to hear what five year old Kayla had to say in terms of a story back then that would be nice, but I don’t know. But yeah, I was writing from the time I could hold a pencil. So with any spare time I had in my life and my classrooms, I was jotting down stories. And then I was 13 when I found out that there was a contest, a novel writing contest. And the prize was $3,000. And that’s when it clicked. People get paid to write books. Oh, my God. I’ve been writing all these little stories I you know, you’re a kid, you’re enjoying reading, you’re not and you’re enjoying writing, but I wasn’t thinking I wasn’t even thinking about the books that I was holding like that, that this was a business, you know, I was just a kid. Right? And that’s, that’s when it clued in that people get paid to write books. So I started immediately writing a story to try to send off for this contest. And of course, I was I was handwriting it on paper from my school notebooks. And it was never would never have ever been good enough to send in, I’m sure. But it was called the agony of divorce. And I didn’t get to finish it. So I didn’t get to send it in. And it was about four friends and the drama in school. I don’t know why I call it the agony of divorce because my parents were happily married. But

Unknown Speaker 18:33
every fifth my kids,

Unknown Speaker 18:36
I don’t even know where that came in. I honestly don’t. But look that that was my first foray into trying to write family drama, because I think I like to do that a lot in my books. You know, no matter what’s going on, there’s some level of family drama and usually some marriage that we’re relationship that’s got some issues. So I started Yeah.

Unknown Speaker 18:56
Did you come from a big family?

Unknown Speaker 18:59
My family’s five people, you know, so my nuclear family just like my sister, my brother, my parents, and like a lot of extended family. There’s like a lot because on my mother’s side, she has like nine siblings. And you know, there’s lots of cousins and on my dad’s side, there were six of them. My dad’s family stayed in Jamaica, though. So my mom’s family had a lot of them come here. So that’s where I got most of the cousins.

Unknown Speaker 19:22
Wow, from Jamaica to Canada. I

Unknown Speaker 19:26
yeah, from Beauty and warps to you know, depressing winters where writers can only you know, that’s why you write if you didn’t know that yet. That’s why we that’s what I do writers in Canada. Wow. By the winters,

Unknown Speaker 19:40
I saw I’m corrected my first time I’ve been writing about any daylight savings time in my life. Thank you for verifying that. So you write in a lot of well, not a lot, but more than one genre and I think the trend is for people to really niche down as well. I’m a romance writer, I’m just gonna write romance. I’m a mystery writer, I’m just gonna write mystery. Does it hurt you to branch out? Because in the music business, I know they like to put you in a box? They want the same thing from you every time. Yeah. And I think most businesses are going to try to do the same thing, whether it’s publishing or So does it hurt you at all to be tab of right variety of genres and things that you like to write about?

Unknown Speaker 20:25
You know, I go back and forth on that in my mind with that very question. Because sometimes I look at other writers who do romance who have just stuck to romance just done romance. And, you know, in some ways, I feel their readerships are growing within the romance, because the readers like that, and they go back to that time and time again. But I always like to have more elements to my story, like I would like one of my editors said, Caleb, you always have to put some element of suspense, like there’s there have to be a dead body, there has to be someone getting stocked. But I also like that. So I always felt, I guess, to some degree, I was bursting at the seams to do more. So in one hand, what happened was when I sold my romance, and then the editor at St. Martin’s Press had kind of learned about the book and liked my writing, I had to do something different for them. So to not compete with the other publisher. So I couldn’t do romance for St. Martin’s and romance for Kensington books, because it would become a competition. So that’s where the mainstream fiction, which is kind of just general fiction, but still, I’d say more geared to women. That’s where that came in. So I did, and I was able to sort of pepper my books with some intrigue, and, you know, with some elements of romance, but the romance was not the focal part of the story. But it also allows me like, you know, if I do a romance now that I can do something a little bit different next time. But yeah, I don’t know, I don’t know if it works fully, because I’ve had, I’ve had some people who will read my more generalized mainstream fiction, and they really liked that. But then they might not necessarily like the romance so much, but I still think I have a lot of crossover readers. So it’s a balancing act,

Unknown Speaker 22:07
my my thought is that it might be a help. And I hope it’s a help because it would, it would encourage the industry to try not to tend not to put people in a box and make them try to, you know, stick to producing the same McDonald’s hamburger over and over and over again, if it helps bring people because I’m, I’m not a romance reader. I mean, if you look at me, I’m not the typical. But if I was interested in some of your other books that weren’t so much romance, I might tend to be more open minded to start reading some of your romance books. So it might help you attract a wider audience in some way. And I hope it does just for what the effect it might have on the business and realizing that, you know, not everybody is so narrow minded. And just yeah. And even people I would imagine, they don’t do enough analytics on this stuff. I imagine that people who read romance novels, people who are big fans of romance novels, they’re very open to reading other stuff. They just happen to like romance doesn’t mean you have to feed them the same Donald Samberg every night. Right,

Unknown Speaker 23:16
exactly. That’s how I was as a reader. And as a reader. I like some variety. So, you know, I’ll read across the board and, and I so I that’s why I hope that the readers, like you said can be like you more open, if you read something else of me that’s not romance and you’d like that, then you might read my romance and say, oh, cuz I like this author’s voice. And I like the story together,

Unknown Speaker 23:38
I bought and everything, whether it’s film, music, comedy, I or books, I buy the author, the creator more than I never look at the genre. So I kind of assume that it’s going to be somewhat near the same ground. So sometimes I’m shocked when somebody is in a film or something that just is a stretch for them. You never saw them. And like the first time I saw Bill Murray and it was a non comedy movie, it was Yeah. Coming of Age or something. And I was like, wow, I was a big fan of Bill Murray’s. And then, but I still love the movie. And it opened me up to that. So I by the Creator, the author more than I by the gentleman, I never think of john or when I’m when I’m shopping for something or you know, when I’m in the mood for something. So that’s Yeah,

Unknown Speaker 24:25
good point.

Unknown Speaker 24:26
Um, tell me about how a story comes together for you. Because every author is completely different again, 250 or so authors never never got the same response for how a story comes together for you. Do you have the whole story in your mind before you start writing? Do you just have the characters in your mind? Tell me a little bit about how it comes together.

Unknown Speaker 24:48
Okay, so for me, I tend to think about an idea first, like a big idea that can open a story and then I think about, well who’s involved in the story. What When, where, why? So I kind of think of the initial idea. And then I think about the characters and the situation around them. So, for example, I have a book that came out some years ago was my, one of my books for St. Martin’s Press called the Delta sisters, where I have, it’s three generations of mothers and daughters, and a secret comes back to haunt Grandma, after 50 years. So it starts with a murder. No, it’s kind of like 1950s, something’s going on. And I don’t and so then I, I really wanted it to kind of open with that bang. And that’s when I’m like, well, who is this? who’s involved in this? And why would this matter to this family? And oh, okay, so this is a, this is an upper crust family in New Orleans, where this kind of dirty secret has to be kept secret, you know, and then you kind of start figuring out the story from it. That’s at least how I do it.

Unknown Speaker 25:52
Hmm, interesting. And you mentioned earlier was kind of, I didn’t know how to react to what you said, you, you were writing with pencil. Yeah. But today, I’m imagining its word processor, or do you did you transcribe it, I mean, how have had the physical part of writing the book,

Unknown Speaker 26:15
it’s all way it’s all kinds of ways. But one thing that I like to do now is I like to dictate and, and for me dictating is, is probably the closest thing to pen and paper. So when I’m on the computer, you can start typing. And then like, by the time you’ve done page one, you’re going back over, you’re already revising, and you’re not letting the ideas and the words just flow. So pen and paper I find I’m just kind of writing and the ideas are coming down. So now when I dictate, I can just get the words out, and then go back and fix it. It’s just, it’s for me. And for every writer, I think we can get caught up in making it sound perfect. And that will slow you down. So it’s really so important to get the ideas out, get the story down. And then at least for me, revision, that’s where I shine. So I you know, I will go and sit down at the computer. But you know, it’s hard with a pandemic, cuz I’m going to tell you, I did my best work at like a coffee shop, you know, Starbucks at my coffee, I had all this noise around me. And I could work when I’m at home. The dishes are calling the bathrooms like, hey, clean me. So it’s been tough in the pandemic. So I find it a little bit better now with with me, even if I’m in the car and I start dictating, it will help the free flow of ideas. Alright, when you said did you work at like Starbucks? I’m thinking you sitting there talking to a dictation machine? No, no, no, no. Yeah. No, not there. At a point like that, I’ve got my Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Crazy writer, crazy, crazy person over here.

Unknown Speaker 27:50

Unknown Speaker 27:52
are you do you show up in your books in some characters?

Unknown Speaker 27:57
Definitely, you know, certain books certain character. I think I’ve always been in there in some ways.

Unknown Speaker 28:03
That No, you recognize that?

Unknown Speaker 28:07
You know what, I think the people that know me are always looking for themselves. Oh, like, you know, my first book admittedly had, I think it was a sister in the story who talked a lot. And yeah, I have a sister who talks a lot. You’d have her on your show, and you wouldn’t be able to get her off probably for a few hours. And she’s like, is that character me? And I’m like, you know, maybe, maybe I do I sorry, I got a watering. I don’t know why you’re making me emotional.

Unknown Speaker 28:36
I feel good about that. That’s my job.

Unknown Speaker 28:40
Yeah, like some stories, like I have a book called obsession, and a lot of that kind of key and it’s, I’m in that one a lot. I’m in that way dealing with like, kind of a relationship I was in where the guy was crazy. But you know, there was a lot of passion. And you know, sometimes I kind of realize the crazier ones are, you know, can be more intense, let’s just put it that way. But you know, also crazy, right? So I there I kind of put myself into that with some of the stuff that I went through in that book. And

Unknown Speaker 29:13
inside there that now I have to ask you because it’s I have experienced this not you know, to a major degree have that because people know you do this now people your friends and people in relationships, know that in some way they might end up in one of your books as it makes them more guarded about how they react to you because for a while that people knew that not everything in my life ended up in a song that was published and, and and or performed and people didn’t want to be on the wrong end of song that went bad and be the main character of it, that you find that with people in your life.

Unknown Speaker 29:52
Okay, you know, what I find is interesting. It’s it’s like, it’s like watching reality TV because I think in the beginning, they’re aware that there’s a camera on them. But then they tend to forget. So people often say, Oh, I shouldn’t tell you this because you’re gonna write about it in a book. And then as time passes, suddenly they’re telling me about it. And I’m like, Yeah, I might, I might write about. So they think about it, and then they lose the guard as they kind of just want to, you know, share whatever it is, but I feel other people are kind of like, No, no, I’m not gonna tell you this cuz you’re gonna write about it, and they hold they, you know, they’re, they stick their, their feet in the sand and keep whatever I’m like, you know, I’m not gonna just I’m not just writing about everybody’s stories. But you know, if there’s something kind of interesting, that’s unique. I might, I might have to borrow it, you know, they should feel happy.

Unknown Speaker 30:39
Gotcha. Yeah, I know. I know that experience. Well, so we’re about halfway through here. It’s good time to again promote the book and the the website the website for the people on the listening side, which is lion’s share of the audiences. Author Caleb Perrin, that calm it’s all one word author, Kayla parent, parent, P e. r. i And the latest book, the latest offering is called a second chance of love. It’s a cooperative work between four authors. Now I have to ask about this. Is, is this as rewarding doing a novella? Do you feel like, wow, I was just getting started, I bet on that story could be so much bigger. It’s a full grown novel that hit you, you’re doing these Co Op, you know, cooperation, I don’t know how to quote collaboration.

Unknown Speaker 31:32
Yeah. Oh, it definitely, you know, there are times when I’m I write, I tend to write long and my short, shorter stories tend to have the ability to go on. So yes, that is a challenge. And so for this one, I really tried to keep the conflict, you know, minimal and, and even, you know, this is a couple extra characters in there, like the the surrounding cast, but I have kept it minimal, because once I start going with, you know, giving them a little bit more life and so forth, my stories can go on. So yeah, no, absolutely.

Unknown Speaker 32:06
That was satisfying for you. Because I would think, you know, you feel like a little bit handcuffed in some ways. No,

Unknown Speaker 32:13
well, you know, what I think what it’s good at is, is kind of teaching, you know, keeping you learning and, and honing your craft, okay, I’ve got to create create a conflict that’s sustainable for a shorter story, and still make it believable and get it to the end, that the readers feel that it was a satisfying story. So it’s another way to, you know, sort of hone your craft. And, you know, because then it’s not my strength to necessarily write short, I can do it effectively. But yeah, for the reasons I mentioned, I’m happier to kind of have a bigger story that goes on longer. But you know, this is, this is a fun change of pace. And it’s quicker to write as well, as long as you don’t overload yourself with too many elements you’ve got to cut out. But you know, it’s a different change of pace.

Unknown Speaker 33:02
Well, I’m on your website right now. And I should just kind of just bring this up and show people because they appear we have see a sea glass bay, bay romance book giveaway order by April 26. What is it? Yeah,

Unknown Speaker 33:17
well, unfortunately, I have, that’s the one that I wanted to update my site. So that was if you ordered the book, before, by April 26, you were automatically entered into a drawing to win some seaglass. So the editor sister actually has a store. I think it’s seaglass, timeless creation, so she makes beautiful seaglass. But if you scroll back up to the Thanksgiving book, all of your anybody who’s listening or goes to my site, now you can click on the link and get that story for free. So it’s this, it’s the same authors in a second chance for love. So the Thanksgiving one, if you go up a bit, is called thankfully in love, or go down a bit, because

Unknown Speaker 33:59
I’m all the way up, go down.

Unknown Speaker 34:01
That there it is. So if you click on that link, it will take you directly where you can get the story for free. The whole thing, the novella version of it. So yeah,

Unknown Speaker 34:11
now I’m seeing a lot of these collaboration, I guess. I

Unknown Speaker 34:15
don’t know the first two. But these ones are mine.

Unknown Speaker 34:18
Yeah, undeniable. Oh, this one is this one is a collaboration as well, though, it’s

Unknown Speaker 34:22
not a collaboration. What happened with that is the the publisher decided to fold this line called commodity romance. So they ended up putting my book and this other book together. So became a two in one. Those are two full length novels that they put into one book.

Unknown Speaker 34:40
Gotcha. So that’s your most recent release. Now, you’ve published 40 books. That’s a lot. That’s a real life. Problem, perfect guy, I guess, man, you have

Unknown Speaker 34:52
to read them all. Now you have to read them all. That’s the requirement.

Unknown Speaker 34:56
I gotta get a picture of my back over there. I have at books I need to read from authors from four months ago that I haven’t gotten to read their books yet. The good thing about it interviewing so many authors is I get a lot of books. The bad thing about it is I just don’t have enough time.

Unknown Speaker 35:12
I know the feeling TBR pile the to be read pile is never ending.

Unknown Speaker 35:19
And every time I pick one up two more come in the mail.

Unknown Speaker 35:23

Unknown Speaker 35:26
So but that’s an incredibly prolific, you must be writing all the time and ideas come to you all the time. It’s not you. Yeah. So where do I get my ID? Yeah, where they come from,

Unknown Speaker 35:40
you know, they come from anywhere and everywhere, really. So some a lot, you know, when I’m sleeping, right? Sometimes it’s in a dream, or when I try to sleep and what keeps the keeps me up at night. I’ll think, Oh, this would be a good idea. Or sometimes I’ll hear something on the news. Or one time I was on a plane flying to Vegas, and there was a couple behind me. And they were talking about renewing their vows and how they were so happy. But then we were flying over Denver, and suddenly the wife says, I bet you’re thinking about her right now, aren’t you? And then as I was allegedly sleeping, I was trying to sleep and in all honesty, but when I heard that my ears perked up. And then they started to argue because the husband had had an affair. And you know, yeah, and then so then I’m like, Oh, you know, so again, being seemed happy. I’m hearing this couple happily going to renew their vows, then I hear the conflict. You know, someone had cheated, obviously, have you cheated, and the wife wasn’t so happy anymore. And you know, so sparks of ideas can come from anywhere. I keep my ears open all the time.

Unknown Speaker 36:42
Wow. Man, I want to know more about that story. But I want to I want to get that guy some advice. If you’re out there listening Mr. Derek Jeter. You shouldn’t be renewing your vows if you’re a cheater, go. Go be single.

Unknown Speaker 36:57
Yeah, you know what? And that’s I you know, and I wonder so many times why those guys are? were women just don’t want to just be single be single live that life. Just do it. No one’s stopping you. I mean, there’s no, just do it.

Unknown Speaker 37:12
Well, interesting enough. And maybe there’s a novel in this for you or an idea. somewhere down the road. I discussed the idea of monogamy with a lot of people because we have relationships I have, I interviewed tons of different kinds of people, relationship coaches, and psychologists and people like that, about the idea of monogamy and instead outdated. And because it sure seems to be with divorce rates so high and you know, infidelity so rampant. I just think in some ways. The human race is not necessarily cut out for long term monogamy at least for as we look towards the future, I think that’s a sad thing. Because I do, I just think there was a lot of value in, you know, nuclear families in mom and dad, and you know, Mom and Dad, we’re, you know,

Unknown Speaker 37:59
we’re committed to each other. Yeah. So it’s like, it’s like I said, I would always, you know, I would see my parents argue not all the time. But when they argued, I always knew that they would stay together. Whereas, you know, I’ve got married to a guy whose mom had cheated. And so when we argued for him, it was, it was like a devastating event. And ultimately, we got divorced. But I don’t think he ever could get over the fact that his mom had cheated. And she’d lied to him about it and moved him away saying, oh, Daddy’s coming. And he had three siblings. And as the youngest, he expected his dad to show up, he didn’t expect his mom to suddenly be moving in with someone else. So there’s a story there too. And that really messed with him, you know, and people react to things differently. And I think because he was young, and had she been open and honest, he might have been able to accept that more easily. But I think he always had a reservation in his mind about trusting women, because the big key figure in his life proved to be untrustworthy. Now, while I wasn’t untrustworthy, it caused so many problems on a relationship and it couldn’t survive. And ironically, he ended up being the one who was not trustworthy, and maybe because of all this psychology, if I had, you know, get her before she can get me I don’t know.

Unknown Speaker 39:13
Great. Well, does that play into your writing? Do you have Are you a somewhat a psychologist or you’re analyzing your characters and kind of getting into their heads or basically doing that with people in real life and then transferring that to characters in your in your work? You’re somewhat of a psychologist and

Unknown Speaker 39:33
i think that you know, what, I I think I am I want to wear that hat. And the one thing that I always did or people tend to do is come to me for romantic advice or relationship advice. So, in my books, I create characters like the one I just told you about my ex husband characters who are often you know, dealing with the stress and the reality of having been in a dysfunctional relationship for example. So in the My latest standalone release, the one that is they put the two books together, I have the heroine in the story is going back home, because her mother is now going to marry her biological father and the biological father and had a secret life with her mom. And now after his first wife has passed, he’s gonna marry this. This other woman is the one he had the secret child with. So of course, the daughter who is the product of the secret relationship is like, Have you lost your mind to her mother? Like, why would you do this, he denied you all these years, he was a cheater, and now you’re going to marry him. But there’s a complicated story that kind of shows that life isn’t always black and white, at least in his case, but she goes back to town to be there for her mother expecting the relationship to fail. And she’s so she’s not keen on love kind of girl. So for her even meeting this guy that now he was interested in her, it’s a tougher battle. And you know, sometimes I wonder if the readers like that, and I have some readers who just who love the reality of that, because, you know, maybe in the pages of romance novels, the security for some people is knowing that the guy is gonna meet the girl and things are gonna go okay, but I want to create this a little bit more realistically, where you meet a girl who maybe he’s got some issues or the guy has some issues, and you still know what’s going to be okay. But you see, the struggle that I deal with in my life, or my friends deal with, or people have dealt with, in reality to get to that happy ending. So just kind of make it a little more mad on dynamic, if that’s the word for it a little more complex,

Unknown Speaker 41:33
right? Well, it as I was listening to you speak there, or even before you got to be that that last part, I was thinking this probably probably determines who your audience is. Because I know a lot of romance fans when my travels are 1314 year old girls, but it doesn’t sound like doesn’t sound like those are the people who are you accordion accordion sounds like they would be more adult more in tune with the reality of Latin and the complications and how well do you know your audience?

Unknown Speaker 42:07
You know, you? You said that? And I thought, Gosh, am I like missing out on a 1314 year old audience?

Unknown Speaker 42:13
You don’t want? I don’t think you want them not? Because as you would say, Well, see, I’m not your target audience. But to me, what you were describing was realism, reality, and a sense of truthfulness, that Yeah, which is why I shy away from because I don’t like the idea of Oh, happiness and happy endings, and you get married. And that’s the end of the story. And they lived happily ever after. And that’s what romance represents to me. So when you were talking, you’re talking about all these complications in deep, you know, scars that people carry around. And people are complicated. And that appeals to me reality, you know, the reality of that, I think sometimes gets sugar coated, and are my perception of what romance is all about. So that’s why I’m not a fan of the agenda. But you describing it made me wonder why that’s a book I could read. That was the stories I could read. Of course, they would not be for teenagers.

Unknown Speaker 43:11
Yeah, that’s a good point. Because I think and that’s the difference between being like a teenager or a young person kind of going into falling in love with this blind, and I evety you know, like, Oh, it’s all gonna be wonderful. He’s just gonna whisk me off to Paris, and we’re gonna have, you know, this fantastic life. And then, you know, boom, comes the first heartbreak. And so I write about the people after they’ve had that heartbreak, you know, you’ll often find, in my book, you got a few women are sitting around bitching about their bad relationships, and they don’t necessarily want love, but into their lives, then come somebody who is great. And so you’re skeptical? Because in reality, I’d be skeptical. But then, you know, you go the distance, and you see, it’s the real thing. And, and then you really know, what’s the real thing as well, based on the scars, the battles and kind of how it gets there. It’s not just Oh, easy, wonderful, sweet. No, there’s been some struggle to get to the end, you know, they’re gonna make it.

Unknown Speaker 44:07
Well, what you’re saying, Now, this is a theory I just came up with, recently, and it could be wrong. But, again, meeting with some authors that I’ve read, I’ve met recently and read some of their work. It strikes me that in order and maybe I’m wrong about this, but in order to be a really, really, really good author, you have to be kind of a deep well and attracts me that you are an experienced person, a deep well, somebody who’s who’s lived and experienced life and know and been around the block a few times where we see people who just come at it from don’t don’t live a, you know, fair, indoor people, like you say they don’t get out much. And then because because introversion leads itself to writing that’s where a lot of writers come from from an introverted world and don’t have a whole world of experience to write for So they just sometimes a little too soft to about

Unknown Speaker 45:05
maybe that maybe that’s it because I you know, I’ve got too many experiences sometimes I’m like, you know what, I don’t need any more thank you I can do I got enough, but there’s always and then sometimes I wonder, am I attracting this like in the universe because it was you or to write about cuz I’m like I gotta I have to write about this now like Yeah, yeah I’ve got a new thing in my life that if this has to be written about but you know it’s there’s always something I kind of want that moment of just pause, relax and you know not have any drama but

Unknown Speaker 45:35
I mind me questioning the fact that your question that may made me kind of wait a minute of course you are. I know I know. And not to get too deep here. But isn’t this your purposes? Because it seems to me that you will, especially when when somebody like you, who comes and says they’ve been doing it their whole life is a calling me they felt their whole life? It seems to me that this is this is the reason you will put on honor to be a writer.

Unknown Speaker 46:04
Absolutely. No, I agree. And you know, you just you just said something. And I don’t know if you meant it that way. But it’s, it’s it’s my purpose. And now it makes me see like, I do know that when I have these experiences, it is for me to share or write about. But to see maybe that the the negative that I’ve gone through is actually a purpose to help my writing maybe. But I’ll tell you, the book that I wrote the Delta sisters, the three generations of mothers and daughters, I had a letter from a woman who said that my book gave her the courage to go home and face her mother, after 15 years of not talking to her, wow blew me away. Because the power of that because mother and daughter relationships can be complicated. So of course, it’s a Kayla parent book. It’s complicated. And to know that, that help someone like that. I mean, it was just, it made the writing of the book worth it just for that one response.

Unknown Speaker 46:57
I’m not one for getting goose bumps. But I and I think this is an important lesson for you aspiring authors out there. Because we do talk about purpose. A lot on this program. But until yesterday was was was the first time somebody brought it up in this context of purposes not I was meant to write purpose. Yeah, I was meant to write. And people were meant to read and use what I write a for, in some positive way. So attaching your purpose to something outside of yourself. Yes, I was born to be a creative person. This is my purpose, I’m on the right path. But the bigger part of my purpose is outward. It’s It’s It’s how I affect other people. And I think a lot of people are missing that part of the message of being on purpose. And so thank you for that. That was a really. And so now I really guess the answer to the most rewarding part of what you do is just that, right?

Unknown Speaker 47:56
Absolutely. Yeah. When I know that my stories have touched someone in their their lives. So it goes beyond the story or it goes, it goes to the power of a story to really affect a person’s life and reflect what people are going through. And that’s why for me, I write about the people with the scars or with the heartache, and, and how they get through it. Because I believe we still have to be optimistic and positive and we can get through it. But life deals, a lot of challenges. So, you know, it is rewarding when people can read one of my books, and it helps them get through some of the challenges in their lives. Amazing Good,

Unknown Speaker 48:33
good positive vibes here. I’m loving. I’m loving it. I’m really glad that we we got you on the program because I needed this conversation. It’s it’s uplifting, in a lot of ways gives me hope for, for the writing crap, because, you know, when you I don’t want to put anybody down, I don’t talk bad about anybody. But when you Oh interview as many people as I do, a comic told me this, he used to work in a comedy club when he wasn’t on stage. He said, I can’t stand I can’t stomach another bad act. And when you when you interview enough authors who are just struggling to try to make it and they just aren’t getting it the whole part of I need to do something bigger than myself and for more than myself, and yes, it’s about fulfilling my inner desire and need, but also fulfilling something for a higher purpose other than myself, I think so many people don’t get that. So I’m really, really inspired and, and grateful to have met you and had this conversation. So I just want you to know that. So thank you. Are you working on anything now for you must be as prolific as you are something for the future.

Unknown Speaker 49:48
I am and I have a few different things going through my mind, but I did just recently. Right and this is another as a shorter book that I plan to publish myself as an E book, but it’s going to be continuing story, and it’s called the Reverend. So it’s about a Reverend who, of course, is living this outwardly pious, wonderful life. But he’s got some secrets. So a lot of stuff is going to come to life and some drama. And it’s funny because I grew up in the church, and I wanted to I grew up in the Seventh Day Adventist Church, and I have a friend who jokes that it’s their bad Ventus. And when I talked about naming the book that or dealing with adventism, the book, my mother said, Oh, no, no, no, like, you can’t do that everyone’s gonna be so upset. But some of the stories I’ve been told, you know, about these people who are a church every week living this, Oh, I’m so wonderful life and like, you pull back the doors and the layers, you’ve got, like, some serious, you know, stuff going on that would shock people. So I it’s not, I haven’t written it about the adventures per se, but just about a bit of the hypocrisy. But still, it’s going to have some, you know, redeeming hope at the end of it, but it’s going to be a little more of a continuing saga. And I’m going to see how that plays out with the readers. Like that, you know, but it’s true. There’s a lot of that in the church. Come on.

Unknown Speaker 51:05
I’m almost speechless right now. And you probably have no idea why. So I’ll explain. Since I started a podcast couple years ago, I have been saying, I don’t believe in coincidences anymore, because things happen, especially on on the show. Wow, that’s just too much to be a coincidence for me. Now, this morning, I woke up an hour ago, I had this idea in my head, and I still can’t connect what it was. But I said, Wow, that’s really profound. And it was about the word reverence. And, yeah, and and about how there was a connection to reference and reverence. And I was like, this, and I can’t recall what it was. It’s like one of those things you’re supposed to write. When you first get out. You have a dream like that. But it was about this idea of reverence. And, and so but I had a Seventh Day Adventist preacher on who’s now an author who has written a book against the Adventist. And to be be somebody commented on it just yesterday that I need to get the other side the pro event Adventist side on it. Yeah. And I was like, I don’t know any pro Adventist. But after talking to the guy who laid out the hypocrisy of the founder of the advantage and all that stuff. I can’t imagine what the positive side must be. And then here it is. The next day, I’m getting a little bit of bad back at me. So there’s a lesson that the universe is speaking Exactly. Through this podcast. Yeah. Wow. God is trying to teach me something. I just have to open my ears a little bit or be a little smarter to understand what it is. But when you say, reverence, I was like, Damn, I was I was when I first got out of bed. Like, what is what is it with that? Now? What was what was they thinking about that?

Unknown Speaker 52:59
Wow, really heavy stuff. Oh, my goodness. That is? Wow, that Yeah, no coincidences. Right.

Unknown Speaker 53:05
Right. Right. I don’t think there are. Because, you know, as you know, I put out a calendar and I just tell people pick the dates you pick the day? Yeah. And often, I will get them lined up where we’re talking about the same kind of subject every day in a row. You know, last week, I had something about artificial intelligence and the threat it poses to humanity and, and, and robots and all that stuff. And that for those authors all in a row that they picked those days, but wow, you know, it’s so that can’t be a coincidence. You know, that’s crazy. Yeah. So. So when did you start? Have you started writing on on the side?

Unknown Speaker 53:49
I have that. So the first book is done. My only my question for myself, I could have put that out already. But it’s like, I want to have this maybe I should have the second one done closer to one, the first one comes out, because when people read that they might want the next one. But I might put that out probably in the next couple of weeks. And then hopefully the next one could be maybe within a month. But yeah, that’s I think, you know, it’s gonna be a continuing saga. We’ll see how it goes. We’ll see how it goes.

Unknown Speaker 54:14
All right. Now, most authors when they ask this question, they’re kind of hesitant to say because it’s a dreamy type of questions. But I think when, if I were to write a fiction novel, I would always be thinking, this is gonna be made into a movie someday. Do you have aspirations of something your books turned into movies?

Unknown Speaker 54:36
Oh, absolutely. We all have. I don’t think anyone says no.

Unknown Speaker 54:40
Oh, yeah, I’ve gotten quit. Oh, no, no. That’s too hard. Oh, I know. They’re lying to me. I mean, yeah. But with that in mind, have you have you tried making it easy for filmmakers by adapting your own screenplay?

Unknown Speaker 54:59
Okay. I Haven’t adapted my own screenplay. But you know, I did tell you I work in the film business, right I’ve so I’ve, and I have access to people who are who know what they’re doing. So if it’s it’s a matter of me getting some funding, I can do that. But I have an idea for a script that I could that could be shot in one, one or two locations to make it easy for budget. And,

Unknown Speaker 55:22
you know, my lady already.

Unknown Speaker 55:24
Yeah. Because I realized the constraints of having like, several locations, you know, a ton of characters, which is something that a lot of even script writers, because I’ve in that world to people who don’t want to have their first movie producer like, Oh, it’s got like, 40 locations, and it’s got a helicopter, and it’s got like a, an explosion. What are you talking about, you’ve got to come up with something that’s gonna be more character driven, you know, it’s got to have an interesting plot, but the character is going to push that story where you can shoot it in like one location if you have to, and go from there. So I’m working on that as well. So like, there’s always something percolating, but that is something I’m hoping to see if I can pursue or by the end of the year, I’m trying to line that up. Yeah. Well, I

Unknown Speaker 56:05
hope I hope you get that done. I wish you a lot of success. I think you’re a bright star in a very kind of dark landscape right now where we need more authors like you more deep wells, more people who come at it from a really realistic sense, and not not sugarcoating the whole world and making everything all bunch of fluff and just I really appreciate where you come from. It’s been great to get to know you, I hope. I hope things work out for you with this movie, or movie idea. I should thank you.

Unknown Speaker 56:37
Thank you.

Unknown Speaker 56:38
So if you have we left anything on the table that I need to ask you that I’m forgetting because I just woke up?

Unknown Speaker 56:45
I’m not sure we covered a lot. And you know, I guess you mentioned my website author Kayla parent, calm and you can find me, you know, go to my website, you can find my social links. But if you put in Kayla parent, you should find me. However, there are imposters out there but you know, either. Yeah, you know what the I looked up Kayla parent on Facebook. And I’m like, Who are these other six people? Like what? I was the only Kayla parent that I know for a long time. So I still feel like I’m the original and the you know, I am Caitlyn parent. I reject all others. Of course,

Unknown Speaker 57:20
of course you are the original. Now on that note, I feel terrible for people named Matt nappo. Because if you google them all you’re gonna get is Me, me me for about 150 pages. And some of the stuff I’m sure they are not, you know, your friends might be saying You did what? What happened to you What? So yeah, sometimes if you don’t, if there is a downside to being the the were the only one. And I I do appreciate that I will put all the links not just a website, the social links will be in the description. The audio version will be out tomorrow, but the video version should be out this evening. And so all the links will be in the description there. I do appreciate your time. wish you great success. And please, when your next book comes out, please do consider coming back and then let’s help you get the word out there to the to the masses.

Unknown Speaker 58:11
Thank you so much. I’ve had such a great time chatting with you today.

Unknown Speaker 58:15
I’ve had a great time too. I really am happy I got to know you and happy you’ve been on the program. And hopefully some people out there not just me Will I’ve learned something from you today. So I appreciate you very much. And I wish you great success. And bye for now. Okay, bye. Thank you. Bye, Kayla parent, folks. Wow, what a great What a great inspirational author today. Great way to end the week. Yeah, I’m on a high now. And the coffee hasn’t even kicked in yet, folks. So really, really I just thought my big takeaway from there is, you know, again, and this is something I’ve come up on will come up with just recently but it really does take more than just being able to write a pretty sentence, one or even a bunch of pretty sentences right after another. It takes a world of experience deep characters. Deep character development only comes from knowing people and experiencing the world. And so that’s you know, you want to be a great author. You want to be a great author do what this lady does, and that’s it. That’s just live your life. Live your life. be interested in life be interesting people keep your ears open your eyes open, always, always interested in stories. That’s my takeaway. I’d love to hear what you think about it. And follow up mind dog info at mind dog No shows this week and we’ll be back Monday we got Monday. It’s too far away for me to think about right now. Another oh actually. Mother’s Day is Sunday night and I’m going to be in trouble with this with my wife. I have an Australian also Liz put her on at 8pm. Eastern time. I’m not sure what time is in Australia all the time. Always time. So it’s going to be 10 o’clock Monday morning for her. It’ll be 8pm Sunday for me. Right here at my dog I hope you’ll join me then 8pm Eastern Sunday night. Thanks for coming. I hope you have a great rest of your day and bye for now.