What Is Patriotism? Jeff “Twitch” Burns – Patriot Gangster – Outlaw Motorcycle Clubs History
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What is patriotism? We’ll talk about it on this episode of the Mind Dog, TV podcast. Welcome my friends yet another episode of the Mind Dog TV podcast. It’s great to have you here is always you know if I screw up on the tech part of of the central one more time I’m Gonna Punch myself right in the face. technical issues with Youtube in stream. Your I know that stuff but we are getting a better system for this kind of stuff and and new technology is on the way folks so. Bear with us and I appreciate your patience my sponsors tonight, our audio audiobook. Now Dot com you know all about audiobooks now dot com come on You don’t need to me to tell you about the convenience of audiobooks and I’m probably GonNa not GonNa give you the long spiel on that tonight because I want to get right into tonight’s show but just to say that you know about audio books and what makes audiobooks books now dot com really special in price. Point it’s as simple as that. You can get audio books just about anywhere and I don’t need to name all the services where you can get them but audiobooks. Now DOT COM is by far the least expensive, and here’s a good thing folks right now in one that right now, actually after the show that right now be clicked a link that will be in the description you’ll get fifty percent off your first order whether that’s a single book or a monthly Book Club Plan. So it’s a great deal, but even better you’ll get a seven day free trial, which means you can try it absolutely free for seven days, and if you’re not happy with it, just cancel it costs you absolutely nothing you got nothing to lose to try it out or your books now dot Com I. Thank you for patronizing my sponsors keeps the show on. Jeff Twitch Burns has been with us before he has a trilogy of books called Patriot gangster Jeff has a long history in experience in law enforcement, but I think it’s fair to say that his love and passion is the history of outlaw motorcycle clubs and the book is kind of not kind of it is it’s a history of. His experience and it’s a little. It gives you a little bit of history of all the clubs besides just his own personal history where it’s a fascinating look at fascinating I’m on my second read of the. Book. Right now I I actually I read the first volume couple months ago when Jeff was on and then had to reread it, start rereading it because. As. I remember my first reading and I think this is probably going to be your experience with with reading the book too It’s an eye opener about what what it really needs to be a patriot who he can trust in our government law enforcement and all that stuff and this whole idea of loyalty and respect and brotherhood. It’s a it’s a whole eye opening look into that stuff, and so it leaves you kind of questioning from his things that you thought. You knew about a lot of different things including some of our government agencies and things like that. So without further ado, please open your ears an open mind and help me welcome in Jeff twitch burned Yep. Welcome back. Thank you for me back man So before we get started you had your okay. Yeah like a wildfire area or something. Yeah we had. A wildfire it. I live at the top of a mountain of forty, a grand there and. Last Friday or Thursday we had a wildfire start. Started we. Found out. Today by arson. and. We by Friday afternoon we gotTa Stage three evacuation, which is you have to get. OUTTA here. They can’t force you to leave. And because I had a couple of dogs, a canine units at the house. I. Didn’t have to move them into a hotel with the budget. Evacuees is very night. Sun Credit I saw a spectacular show I’ve never seen. I mean I’m certified wildland firefighter. So obscene wildland fires before, but I’d never seen it that up close and the coordination of all the various air assets they have from. You know big DCA jet planes come in and drop retardant to Um helicopters to prop plans. It was it was a spectacular show little bit scary that was Kinda fun though too so. We were we were evacuated I can’t believe anything would be a little scary for you. My friend after reading your book is like, Nah00:05:00 – 00:10:08
This guy’s not scared of anything. Not True. But he did this is a statement on how screwed up our country is right now that that was not a national story and we didn’t hear about that in the media because that’s a big story you know part of on. The West Coast is burning and then people don’t know about it Yeah. Yeah. So That’s why I wanNA start tonight a canoe. Because there’s there’s this. All going on in the country right now. The idea patriotism people have different ideas about what it means to be a patriot, and since your book is Patriot gangster. I think you can probably give us a your handle on it. I probably will accept your definition before just about anybody. Else’s so can you can you define Patriot to the Louis? It to mean being Patriot means the you let the constitution. Guide your actions and I mean it’s a very simple thing that I think has gotten politicized in this day and age and. There’s so many different definitions of what it means to be a Patriot to me. It means you know that you lead the Constitution Guide your actions and you’re willing to give up everything for what you believe and in the best interest of our our country. Wow. Wow again. Of God continue with wowing. Again, that also centers in my opinion around the constitution because it, it’s our guide manual operations manual for this country and and it doesn’t require a lot of debate. And it’s not. It doesn’t. If you’ve read, it doesn’t leave a lot of room for interpretation in those the room that it did leave we’ve worked out over the years and so Yeah like I said to me being Patriot means you let the Constitution Guide, your actions, and the you’re willing to give up everything for what you believe in to defend the constitution and in the best interest of our country. Well In your book, you talk a lot about one particular agency in of the government that the ATF and I had guy scheduled to come on who was a former ATF agent route recently have been shortly after you were on and he canceled on short notice and and said that I was glorifying outlaw activity and didn’t want to be part of the show and I thought that was telling him that that always of a sudden. He I guess he figured that I read the book and it might have some tough questions about some of the tactics they use, but it left it left me with a very strong distrust for some organizations like that I is the ATF single database they unique in the way they they ha kind of coerce false con cup, false confessions, and false testimony and stuff like that. That is detailed in the book. So. I think it’s fair to say the for singled out but I didn’t do that. They did that to themselves when they decided in the seventies that they wanted to become the clearinghouse for all outlaw motorcycle club investigations in all the intelligence training related outlaw motorcycle clubs. So when I wrote my book, I would have loved to written about other law enforcement agencies. But because they are the head of the snake, I, had to focus on them and amd because they’ve been the leadership in every major outlaw motorcycle club infiltration investigation since the Seventies. I had to focus on them they naturally became. The focus because. coordinating at all Now, there’s other agencies that are involved on the task forces. The conduct, these infiltration operations, but the is the one that drives all the intelligence, the training, right. So by according to your definition that I totally agree with about what patriotism patriotism it, Kinda questions is me, I forced me to question. The motives of particular agency and I’m wondering, are there other agencies in the government that are just abusing the constitution and I? I think you probably have some insight into that even though the ATF is the one that focuses on the motorcycle clubs the is what I’m asking willies. This rampant thing that will be American citizens should be really concerned about. I think it is and I don’t think it’s unique. Well, my my expertise. When it comes to that type of corruption that type of law enforcement corruption primarily rests on the because that was the agency that was coming after my culture that I lived in i.
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think that we can look to like the individual the woman that was arrested in New York City by plainclothes officers in unmarked van, this week or the deployment of US forces without official insignia, a federal forces. To protect federal buildings I understand that’s the justification but I happen to live in one of those cities and I happen to live in a region where we’ve had that deployment in Portland just down the road, an hour and a half away. So I understand the people in that environment, and that’s the worst thing you could to with the type of Americans we have here on the Pacific northwest to say. We’re going to do this to you and you’re gonNA, like it and you better go home because that’s not going to happen. It’s antagonistic. The you saw was the natural response and that’s why you know the leadership the local leadership here is. The the the response that they ask initially to say, okay let’s work things out. Let’s get along because they know they’ve got a bunch of people in this neck of the woods that’ll stand up for themselves. So you know you don’t want to inflame the situation and I think it was handled appropriately on the local level but at the federal level not so much. and. So. We can look at those kinds of things in NCAA. Yeah it is it going across the board or today I was reading an article about a new. Law Enforcement Gang the got exposed in the LA. County sheriff’s department. Outta Compton. Precinct. It’s the game called the executioners and they used tattoos to identify things they’ve done and identify their membership and operate just like any other gang and it’s it’s one of their officers that is out of them in court. And now he fears for safety so. To think that that there’s not corruption in every level of law enforcement, I think that’s Asinine and we can prove that we know that that’s going on. Now it’s been hidden for. Decades decades, but we’re starting to see it come out now and it’s a result of what happened. Over the several months and You know it’s a result of the press finally starting to be willing to talk about law enforcement corruption is something that’s real and tangible and exists and needs to be addressed seriously by every level or government. And I I hate to cut this keep on focused on this idea patriotism but I brought up that very issue of the of the kind of that everybody. Even if they’re criminals, WE WANNA see criminals put away or dealt with violent criminals and doing things but everybody deserves due process and the law enforcement needs to kind of keep the constitution in the back of their mind at all times. So when I was quizzical of the Way they were handling that stuff and saying that’s just GonNa make things worse people call me unpatriotic and I was like no I. Think I’m being patriotic place in the constitution is the guiding light for for want law enforcement and due process is necessary. You can’t just pull up in unmarked bands that tell people that they don’t even what agency you’re with what you being charged with, take him away and they disappeared no lawyer I know. Where do they go? How do you contact the law enforcement agency that took them I? Mean there are some very basic questions. INDICIA from law enforcement creates creates problems along with it, and they all relate back to the constitution. So in it were living in a very, very tricky time and I think you know if we wanna hope to unify again as a country like we did post nine eleven, it’s going to have to come back to our. Our Love America because. If you know if we continue to go down this road, it’s it’s getting more divisive more divisive every day and you know. We’re creating a complicated situation where people can’t speak their minds and that’s part of being a Patriot like you were talking about being able to speak your mind and stand up for what you believe is at the core. People get too much caught up in this team player about political parties in nonsense and nonsense that they don’t even pay attention to the stuff like that. But you would think the government would learned from like we’ll be region stuff like that. You can’t go ahead and enforce that. Your will on people who who are what I call Second. Amendment enthusiasts. Yeah. I want to go start on a motorcycle clubs now, but I don’t know where I I think you you start with the reunion with your friend. Josh but you get into that later in the book as well Kinda until that story. But what struck me was first of all, why when he went to prison for? Was, he I forget the term us out bad.
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Some something what is that what you can’t communicate with them and why is that? That’s why I love coming on your show Matt you always like started with a great hard question that’s expanded comes huge so Very fundamentally answer your question in a very simple way. There is a non written code in the Motorcycle Club world everything related to your code including how many guys you have, and what were your chapter locations are. That’s all considered club business and you’re not supposed to talk about it for the outlaw biker cut. With other club members or family members or anything like that. That’s our the way that the world has become. So secret, but within the culture, we have all these different rules that we abide by and one of them is if you’re in a respected outlaw motorcycle club or any motorcycle club for that matter matter and you get out in bad standing the wrestler club world isn’t supposed to talk to you and have anything to do with you and if. They do that caused a problem for them within their own club cause a problem for them between their Club, the club that the the member in bad standing in and so it’s it’s an unwritten rule that we all abide by to avoid problems. Any inadvertent disrespect or guys hearing on relationships that are negative. Or could have a negative impact on the club in when somebody’s put out in bad standing you don’t talk to them anymore, and so when Josh initially was put out of the he quit the club and that’s where this a suggested question. This gets more complicated because what I learned and Josh was the very first incident. I saw this this was I knew first-hand. One of honorable hells angels I’ve ever met in my entire life and I’ve been around that up you know my entire adult life. So you know from one we met in early twenties to this day. He is still one of the most honorable one percents of any club I had ever met and he only did five years as a member in the hells angels will over five years but. He decided to put the club and when a member like that. That’s in high standing and respected by the entire community quits I didn’t know this that. I suspected. But The major motorcycle clubs without exception across the board will put. A good member who quit on their own because they’re dissatisfied with club out and bad standings, and they do it to save face and to prevent any other clubs from talking to that member. So they can’t tell the other clubs why they were dissatisfied with their own club and none of those other clubs will pick them up as a member now. I like I said Josh was the first case I saw that with and so right after he left the club, he was put out a bad standing but then when he was brought up on his rico charges and facing. The death penalty for for the crimes he was indicted for any didn’t rack. He didn’t. You know take a plea he didn’t testify against any other club members he took trial and. At that point during the trial which lasted phase he was locked up for over your. But during that phase, the hells angels change this status back to good because you know he didn’t Raton I? Think they were they were trying to smooth things over with him because he was saying anything and then as soon as he took his plea agreement, they put him out bat standing again and so right after he got he got. You know ’cause. They hold on a major. On the murder charge the murder rate eight racketeering by car violent crimes in Asia racketeering, which is a absence goes on the murder. The jury hung on that and Josh’s case in the events came back and said, okay, refile those charges were adding a bunch more and we’re gonNA run a gun or you can take a plea agreement will give you credit for time served you’ll do fifteen years and. You know you can get out but you have to admit the you committed the crimes on behalf of the hells, angels and. natives. The racketeering enterprise because they’re criminal enterprise and according to his plea agreement according to what the feds Josh had in order to get the deal. Well, he signed a deal ’cause that’s better than you know two and a death penalty case and. You know he did his time was a model prisoner and got out, but they kept his standing in bad standing because he admitted the club was a criminal enterprise as part of. That element of his plea agreement will be come boiler plate for every outlaw motorcycle club members clear remember whether they had a minor infraction or a major infraction like Josh is You know from his will actually started before it is but I thought personally in every case from his plea agreement all the way through the time while all the way through present day so.
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It’s consistent, tactic. Is. His was a little different story because they were up to. No good. He was up to no good, but it was individual stuff. It wasn’t you know but the club has a whole and it wasn’t his charter as A. Before we go any further, I want to bring I want to tell people the links to the Amazon where we can buy the book will be in the description. So you can click on it. I’m just going to bring up this ban afford for the website here. Now you a stain on Josh Ramin I think. Most people who are not part of this world that you that you have been for twenty plus years would would look at a guy like him with tattoos on on the sides of his head J. Gigantic Mountain of a man and think He’s just a big clunky dude not like very smarter anything. You paint a picture of a guy who’s very intelligent, very charming very knowledgeable and I think that that’s that would surprise a lot of people and I think it’s more common for from reading the book back kind of person. In in these in these clubs is more common than the more than the average Joe would think. Comments Annette, if you are. It that is the average Joe in the motorcycle world is eating. We’re all average JOES. The difference is when we get involved in motorcycle clubs, Particu motorcycle clubs were not just chasing brotherhood and this idea of freedom because there’s really no freedom in an outlaw motorcycle club there’s so many damn rules and you’re under so much scrutiny whether it’s internally within your own or extra from law enforcement but. You know, I, think the average joe gets involved for the loyalty honor respect brother than and they wanna live their life by code where you know I, it’s very simple to get along. You treat me good I’ll treat you better treat me bad. I’ll treat you worse and I mean that makes it very simple to live in, but it also makes it a very polite culture. So the motorcycle club culture is very polite. You don’t hear people insulting each other at all and as you do, it’s GonNa lead to a fight. So it’s a rare thing and. You know the violence that is there in the most part is is. A spontaneous generally associated with too much alcohol or too much owned. Would ever or it’s instigated by the feds I mean. I actually not whatever it’s always meth always if there’s GonNa be a problem related to narcotic in the Model Motorcycle Club world it’s math and it’s because that’s where meth became popular back in the day. It’s part of the culture that we all that have lived in the culture have actively worked to get rid of but. Because it’s outlaw culture, nobody wants to pass rules say you can’t do this. You can’t do that. It’s it’s very much an attitude of do whatever you want. Don’t tell us about it but if it becomes a problem for the club or we notice it is a problem for you and your dog and and so that’s the way the clitoral handles it and it’s dying out, but it’s still there and. You know all it takes is one of those guys that are totally irrational and next thing you know you’ve got our fight that turns into murder beefs and and you know it’s no good. You know in this part in this part of the country, methamphetamine is not as prevalent as. New York is a heroin and cocaine state But So we don’t really see that many mess heads here at least you where where I am but the few times that have come in contact with that’s like a frigging Zombie walking around those people are just like the strangest behavior you would ever save from somebody it. It’s IT BAFFLES my mind because I haven’t been really around that much. But when I have seen it, it’s just like, wow that that I could see how that could cause trouble in in place. In my opinion methamphetamines. The single most negative impact her. Negative element of outlaw motorcycle, club culture, and followed second by. Infiltration Investigations. because. Without the Meth, there would be nothing infiltrate, but those those the tweaker in the club even though it’s a very small number, they opened the door via their innate criminality that’s associated with their action. For fenced-in infiltrate in for them, because of the penalties associated method automatically turns it into a big case and they can use you know, I intensity drug trafficking area a task taskforce funds to fund the operation then so. It can go from which should be a symbol tweeter investigation to now we got an infiltration going mobile years against the Motorcycle Club because we assume they’re all into methamphetamine, which is just not the case right so you talk about this code and I think and you can correct me if I’m wrong. But my assumption is because the clubs were evolved at of world.
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War Two in a lot of military guys who kind of established a club that that code is it kind of ties back to military because it sounded awful lot like a marine when you talk about loyalty and honor and respect and brotherhood, and all that stuff. So is that is that part of it is that that same kind of mentality the marine mentality? It’s absolutely part of it. When we look at the evolution of the history of outlaw motorcycle clubs you know they are a product of post World War Two that veterans returning home looking for excitement looking for the Camaraderie and the Brotherhood that they found in combat and realizing, Hey, we don’t fit in the normal Zaid anymore but I hear with these guys and that’s really where the clubs other first big growth in revolutionary period and then you saw another big boom right after the Vietnam War and then you see another big boom in post nine eleven it’s all returning vets but when you’re talking about culture that was being formed. By vets, of course, there was transfer over. So a lot of the stuff that goes on prospecting period is it can be directly related back to the military and a lot of the way ways that you know just the rules that you have being a prospector being a member as far as security checking in with the club and whatnot all of those are very similar to what you see in the military from. A result of guys from various units coming home and saying we’d be better if we did it this way let’s incorporate this. And you know it’s Stuck after the seventies and you know it is just continue to progress as we’ve gone through and I don’t I hope it doesn’t ever lose that that militaristic aspect because it’s what keeps things really. Centered here in my opinion but. Like everything you know the history getting lost as the generations, the older generations in the guy that did it for you know forty fifty even years they’re all starting to get out of the culture because it’s changed so much. Well that code seems to me attractive to any man with testosterone running through his veins who had a father, a brother who served in a war or or you know even if it just known about Gi Joes or whatever that that whole idea of you know you you you to leave no man behind and that Kinda stuff but just when. He went to prison gotten vowed Roy or had dealings with people who really fit the term Gangsta mafiosos and mafia, and so at some point you asked him about about that needs to why should I be willing to people who weren’t loyal to me now I think this is a very disheartening thing is the as I look at it is Finding out people who know loyalty to somebody and you really dedicate and find out that it’s not a two way street that can really break your heart and change the way you look at things change your whole perspective on life. So Tell me a little bit about the what changes that put him through and how that affected you. Bet just hear him his take on it. So when Josh because of the way things went down for him. From, what I’ve seen knowing outlaw motorcycle club members that have with their clubs and being one myself. You go through a period where It wasn’t so bad for me because I had already come to the conclusion. The club world was all illusion and I was you know my club was just nothing but lies and. You know I I’d already come to that conclusion. So I’ve lost a lot of the anger but what I find from guys, the quick clubs is there’s a lot of. Resentment. There was on for a year or more after they leave the club and and when Josh was going through that phase he was. Free, for a little bit of it, then he was locked up in in SEATAC in in the federal lockup related to his rico trial. So he got to go through that. In federal lockup and that’s where he went through that phase. But for him, it was different because as soon as he started, he was sentenced in stuck into the federal correctional system. You know because he went in is with law enforcement of labeled as an organized crime member. He got the same treatment as every other organized crime or whether they were a well known member of the of the Mafia or like him while on housing to force her y’All go through the same they should around the country in the same route, and as soon as he hit Leavenworth and got the yard he was seeing you know and hearing stories from these mobsters. The were almost identical to is and how you know the guys in the mafia were all out for themselves and they were stabbing each other in the back and it wasn’t the family that they thought it was gonna be he’s like, Hey, you know that’s exactly the way it was for me because I couldn’t talk to him.
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You know and I was respecting the Code I didn’t talk to for fourteen years and when he got out that first day. Sitting in his kitchen and we were reuniting. You know we talked about what he experienced in prison. We talked about what went on on the outside and he had heard about what was going on in the motorcycle world outside a little bit while he was in because you know those guys are in there too on the inside club. Guys are all friends regardless of what cloudy Amber so I’ve met even more. Even. More. So because you need that that you need you need brothers in their eight or well, it’s more that you all understand each other’s lifestyle you know and you understand where where you gain from and how you got there you know. Because that’s a big part of it too, and so he was able to kind of keep up on what was going on the outside name what was going on on the outside with with everything in the motorcycle club. He’d come to the same conclusion even though we had talked in fourteen years that I had come to, which is you know hang. At one point in time, it might have been an ideal culture but ultimately, what it’s come down to is you know the loyalty honor respect and brotherhood is just a great idea and bunch of fun talk and when the Shit hits the fan your brothers. Your brothers only be there for you if it’s convenient. On there’s very few individuals that were like Josh were we we were you know. Lived and would bleed and lose our freedom for the club because we believe. So strongly in that idea and over the course of my fourteen years and then writing the books I realized what was going on with guys like Josh I. The reason why we were such a small percentage but but they exist in every club guys like like we were that will do whatever for the club they believe in everything hundred percent. We were falling victim to the same thing that calls fall victim to which is viral mimetic infection, and when you talk about an idea like loyalty honor respect and brotherhood in a culture based around that that so attractive and then you have consequences for. Not, adhering to that lifestyle that involved violence. That’s the same thing as a cult it’s viral mimetic infection, and and so you know when you’ve got young men especially is Josh Miranda early twenties we involved in the outlaw motorcycle world where these days the average club members in their forties you know so much more susceptible to that kind of brainwashing in. That’s exactly what in my opinion happened to me and Josh. You know I’m not going to speak for him but I know the conversations he and I hadn’t he doesn’t disagree with that so. I think that was part of it and You know it is it does break your heart when you realize it’s all an illusion and. It’s like I’ve I’ve been living alive for for so many years but the question because I do believe that know I’m I’m older than you but I do believe when I was young man. That that kind of loyalty exist with the with the club said came to see my band and supported my band and all those years bat W- seemed to be there and maybe I just imagined it but I if it was there, did it they Did. It devolve into what it is. Now because the guys who just used those words loyalty and respect and brotherhood who never lived through it. So I’m saying I’ll guys went through NAM and they came back they had that or they’ve lived it already and now maybe they the club blow Florida standards and they’re taking guys who really didn’t give it. All you have to do is you know say the words as like a cult member. Would have to say chant to work over and over again, brother reflected and so yeah, you can say the word but if you don’t live it, you don’t walk. You don’t talk the talk walk the walk You’re not really living that and so is that why it devolved to where it is now or might just imagining it that it was that when I was young because it did seem like that they were that code. That is true back in the forties fifties and early sixties the bond was much more genuine. Think the reason that was during that period was twofold number one. You didn’t have law enforcement targeting the clubs like you. Like you did starting in the seventies it really kinda started in the late sixty really in the seventies. And at that point they were targeting clubs using the Rico Act which is the same. Set of criminal laws they use against the Mafia so. What had been bar fights were now you? assaults. sonate racketeering or armed robbery native racketeering if they tried to take the guy’s patch. And at that point, just like we saw the Mafia Utah guys, the respected guys starting to flip to save themselves, and then that became the model because you know.
00:35:11 – 00:40:13
Once, the feds figured out Hey, can get guys in an item for twenty five years to lights. Deal, that’s what I was going to be the ATF got really good at manipulating guys in and play with their minds a little bit and kind of playing with guys against each other with getting you know a black and get one guy to to. Make a false statement, false testimony about a guy and week dat out somehow and just play playing mind game. That’s the the the modality they used to infiltrate two clubs. If that I. I think. So and I don’t think it’s unique to the I. think that’s that’s common day. Operations in general or there were talking about the ATF FBI is C. I whoever? Local law enforcement I mean that’s that’s the model of the is followed. You gotta give them a little credit. Even know what they’re doing is unconstitutional. They got really smart at at taken down these organizations. Absolutely. But but the reason they got smart about that is they have organizations like the International Outlaw Motorcycle Gang Investigators Association, which is made up of all these you know undercover agents in case managers, intelligence analysts in prosecutors who specialized outlaw motorcycle club investigations and prosecutions in they have big budgets and spend time figuring out how to get around the laws and what they can do. You know as far as their. Operations and how they can push boundaries. Or. How For one particular example when we passed our profiling law here, in Washington, that made it illegal for law enforcement to profile bikers. That made national news in. Obviously it was a big topic amongst investigators and prosecutors who investigated outlaw motorcycle clubs well. Within a year less than a year, the international outlaw motorcycle gang investigators association had got their legal resources together figured out how they could you serve our profiling lying in Washington and they were teaching ganging better L. Motorcycle Gang investigators conferences. ’cause Alamos. Gangs. and. In as part of that curriculum, those conferences they were teaching how to usurp. Profile. So we were we were receiving abuse as a culture the was taken. So seriously by legislature here in Washington that they passed a bill into law making it illegal the profile bikers, and rather than abide by the law, the feds put their resources which we pay for to work figuring out how they get around it, and then they started teaching law enforcement all over the country, how to get around the subsequent providing laws passed. So I mean it systemic and you know I’m sure that’s not unique to ATF and motorcycle gang investigations I think that you probably have it when it comes to criminal street gangs and eastern. European organized crime groups you know whatever group that they’re investigating. It’s going to be common practice and combat tactics because. All the trainings related and it crosses over. I think this is an important read for people because of that aspect of I think people. kind of naive and just think and I know the people who who reacted to me saying do processes is an important part of it and you constitutional rights when you’re getting arrested may matter people just a especially and I wanna make this a political discussion please. But the simplest people who are flag Gateway Gung Ho and think waving the flag makes you a Patriot generally want to trust in all law enforcement and thinking they. Always have the right right motive right? Right mindset in in all of this net heart is necessarily in the in the right place and it occurs to me that some of them just might be in it for making the bus and they might be just as criminal as the people are going after in a lot of ways that just they. They have a bad but this, still you know the breaking the law. I mean you look at like what I talk about? In the book I start to talk about the first one, but but it’s what I believe in. That is when it comes to outlaw motorcycle gang investigations as law enforcement calls them. There is a systemic careerism within every Alabama law enforcement involved in that specialty of investigation and they do it so that they can rise through the ranks and their local agencies moving federal agencies where the pay is much the benefits are much better and the work is easier and they’ve got more resources and the benefits are better everything about it’s better in the end goal is like what we saw with Jay? which is you know have that career bus that you can write a book about and sell movie rights to and then retire and get paid twenty grand for an eight hour days.
00:40:13 – 00:45:01
Worth of speaking travel all over the world talking about outlaw motorcycle clubs or as he calls him L. A. Motorcycle gangs. Continue, use Dobbins. As an example, all we have to do is look at agency Flus. Sheffield. His book that he wrote rat snakes and he outs agent Dobbins for illegally traveling into Mexico against the highest policies. As part of his investigation for Operation Black Biscuit. So if the guys that are supposed to be investigating crimes are out committing crimes, themselves federal and international crimes themselves. WHO’s the bad guy? We can look at the convictions that came out of black biscuit and they were minor compared to agent. Feeling undercover in a foreign country without authorization. But, I, the climate in America right now is all they got a bad guy. So no matter what they what ends, what means they had to take to get to that end to get some bad guys arrested Let’s Fuck the constitution. What does the Constitution mean? And I think that’s a prevalent attitude Dan. They won’t even come out and say the constitution but that’s what they’re saying when they say you know I’m on the side of the police here and I. Don’t I’m not believe me I’m not anti-cop. I’m not anti COP, but I know when they when the cops are breaking the law or not abiding by the constitution that criminals just the same as the guy, the guys that going after I think people don’t and I think your book is a great way to remind people that. You know that that is important. Just much criminals as the people that going after, and that’s not a good thing. So don’t support the criminal cops. Is. One thing to say blue lives matter but gotta understand not every blue life man as much as you know, most of them are good cops out there. But there are ones that are just you know as corrupt as can be my and I bring this up all my chief of police in my. He went he went to jail for Beata my county. He went to jail for beating up a guy who found sex toys and stuff in his in his gym bag in his locker that end of black book that implicated him as a serial murderer, and then the entire police department the DEA covered it up the chief of detectives covered up they’re all going to jail for the cover-up obstructing. And all that. So it’s the idea that tops on always on the right side and people in this county say that and I’m like, do you realize how cheap police serial murderer? How `bout? You know. I think it goes back to what you’re talking about with due process. When you talk about, you know all blue lives matter. I. Think they do until they’ve had their due process and been proven to be a criminal, and then they’re just another ship back. And they should be treated as such. You know because you can’t just look at just like without all bikers you can’t look at a group of cops and say, okay, they’re all bad. So like not all ATF. Agents are batting my opinion you know but there there are a handful that I absolutely believe are in and I will make solid arguments in Evanston his best I can because. Is, fantasy is systematic abuse within within the organization okay. Great not obviously some people go get into the ATF with the most noble reasons and for the best intentions. But if the if the system is corrupt sooner or later, it’s going to touch them in some way and it’s hard to keep your keep your blinders on and not notice the corrupt and it’s going on around your even if you are a good guy. Well, and that’s the other thing we need to talk about his wife aren’t these cops talking about the corruption that’s going on around him I mean we. Look spoke about you know the La County sheriff’s Compton precinct and this new gang police officers it’s not new. It’s just been revealed recently called the executioners gang cops. There’s no difference between what they do a criminal street gang But. It’s not something new and and gangs within the sheriff’s department is not something new. We’ve been hearing about it for over twenty years. Why hasn’t been anything been done about it and why is it that it’s not mainstream news unless you studied law enforcement gangs and really looked into that as a possibility you would know they existed in just now because of what went on with with George Floyd and the other incidents and all the protests around the country that all of a sudden for the first time, it’s politically acceptable to talk about bad cops you know and I think it’s really it’s.
00:45:01 – 00:50:07
Not says to believe the cops are of such high moral integrity that they’d never commit any crimes. There’s only good cops I want to believe that myself they were always out for the side of good and they were just a couple of bad guys here and there. But when I went back and realized, you know what I had experienced in my professional career and seeing with other cops the. They were corrupt based on their actions. I watched them commit crimes. Or would I experienced as an outlaw motorcycle club member where you know law enforcement I was the target. Of forcement. They brought me to the conclusion that broke my heart and and that is that systemically we have a problem all across this country with corrupt that law enforcement. Law enforcement that cred not just committing crimes, but some cases operating as organized criminal groups while an. If that costs, you guests you know that’s unfortunate. But that’s the reality you know and and I wish you would come on and allowed you to ask him questions and tried to explain why they treat us like they do. But they only got one stick and that is we sell drugs were offered me prizes. You know be engaged invited violent crime and it’s just not says. The ATF guy was going to have on I didn’t I had no plans on kind of using your book as A. Derogation manual for the guy but I I just wanted to ask them about what was going on in the country right now knowing that I wanted anybody in law enforcement that kind of comment on this whole situation that we’re facing in. America right now with this distrust of the police because of some cops who just don’t don’t care about the constitution, they wipe their ass with it and and and what was that causing and How a a good cop might look at that and say, what can I do to address that situation that was my intent but I guess saw that I had read your book and big this guy’s going to be like a prosecutor with me and and kind of come at me, and that wasn’t my intent but So the first book is out and you have to more coming at one and they coming out. Okay. So the second book which is titled The Enforcer. COMES OUT MILL October of this year, and then the third and final book in the trilogy comes out. On February Sixteenth Two thousand twenty one so while. Your within the next within less than a year, we’ll get him on. You know I can’t stress enough how people really need to read this right now at the first volume is out it’s on Amazon right now, the links will be in the description to just to get. Get us all on the same page as far as this idea of patriotism and I. You know I don’t care what a what you’re. In affinity is in life what you love to do a serious stuff and it threatens our entire way of life it. It threatens our country. If we if we don’t really get a grasp on how important due process in the law really is and this idea I mean, it doesn’t matter if you’re in a biker club or a whatever you do in life that things are still important to us So I appreciate it. Thank you for. The book now I wanna I just WanNa, I don’t WanNA put words in your mouth, but I would say from my reading of the book that the idea that they organized crime is just ridiculous I. Think you would, and again I don’t want to put words in your mouth but I think you would say disorganized crime if if it it whenever crime occurs, there did not organized in such a way like you would see the ATF being organize. That’s absolutely correct. Allah. Motorcycle clubs would best. They’re not organized crime groups. They aren’t involved in organized criminal activity What has happened is there’s been incidents. That have been able to be classified as organized crime because you know they have three or more people that were that were all members of the club. Time together by a common identifier like the club Tattoo that doesn’t mean the glove had anything to do with it. That’s all those guys were members of the Club in there working together with each job. and. I think that’s one of the biggest. Things you expose yourself to as a man in this day and age wanting to become a member of an outlaw motorcycle club is it’s not what you’re doing. You can think that, hey, man just like I did I’m not going to get involved in any of that stuff. I won’t be a problem to me I will be at risk. But that’s not true because as long as you’ve got guys in the club, the are doing stuff unbeknownst to you when they get pinched because they’re up to stuff unbeknownst to you and they rat on you and you’re an officer in the club or a member with more respected know is a primary target for the law enforcement that’s investigating that.
00:50:07 – 00:55:10
Now becomes a real problem for you because they gotta do is tell stories in this day and age and the feds will hand down indictment knowing they’ve got a ninety nine percent conviction rate and you know they have no problem charging you high and then offering that ridiculous plea agreement for time served in a small. But they get what they want, which is that that plea agreement with the statement of facts saying the clubs, a criminal enterprise, right One of things you do in the book is exposed a lot of stupid ideas that people who aren’t involved in the club have like as far as I’m talking about patches and numbers and stuff like that. So when I was a kid, we thought the thirteen mental letter and. I guess we will right in the but we thought signified the guy who did murder because Thirteen Amazon thirteenth letter in the Alphabet, and so thirteen must mean this got that guy’s done a murder for the club and saw, and then eventually that em became a meth dealer a method or something like that. But you kind of exposed at it’s just nonsense and there are more. Are there more things like that? You know we take a stupid folklore. Yeah you know that’s a great example that that patch originally got vilified by saying you know it meant the the aware this was back in the sixties the where smoke marijuana ’cause I was horrible back in the early sixties right and. Then they twisted it long for change that to mean none. Oh, now it means he sells marijuana and when marijuana wasn’t evil enough meth came onto the scene Loppers for change that means he’s cells methamphetamine. Well, that’s just ridiculous because nobody who’s involved in drug dealing is going to put a big sign on themselves and says, Hey, Mammal drug dealer you know it it gives law enforcement the ability to target you very easily and I mean that’s just absolute nonsense that thirteen symbolized is a term that’s the. Original to the Motorcycle Club community which motorcyclist and it’s this idea of living your life around the motorcycle. The motorcycle lifestyle, there’s nothing nefarious about it. But when Attorney General Lynch was right in his report nineteen, sixty five, he needed something to vilify gloves with, and that was an easy way patch was list because it can mean whatever you want you know. So that reminds me I I can’t I lost track of times you say in the book makes no sense and I think that whether it’s part of an ATF investigation or or things like that to Laura about it. All the way A- Sajjan and arms is leading or not leading in that situation, and then you’d say this makes no sense and I I gotta say you probably make that comment maybe a hundred times in the book but. And and so I think that’s important for people to kind of hold onto is when you hear these kind of stories, does it make sense for a guy to advertise that he’s a murderer or a a marijuana dealer in the day or of course it makes no sense when you when you put it out that way but people all oh, that thirteen media murder. Along those same lines I’ll tell you another thing. So my my lips, I can’t do Mike. Mile. Club membership Tattoo right there. According to law enforcement, I heard this in law enforcement training. I, was in his law force officer from. An expert at motorcycle gang experts, and this was right before I went prospect for the club you know and so I was in that meeting it was part of another gang investigations conference that I was attending for other stuff. But that was a full day of the week long training and. So I was interested to learn like before I went prospect. What was so criminal about these guys because everything I had seen they were getting a bum rap and the guys in the club criminals, and from time to time the guys gotten bar fights as a group. But I didn’t see that as organized crime you know not not worthy of the resources that were being dedicated to these guys. And so I went to the straining and the detective teaching. It told the entire room which was like three hundred plus gang investigators. From all over the country, the that Tattoo right here on my arm in order to get that Tattoo, you have to kill a cop and so. Outsider member the stopped on the road and you saw what that Tattoo you need to call for extra backup and treat him very carefully because he’s guilty cop and I knew for a fact at that point because I was like I said, it was getting ready to go prospect. I knew that the way that Tattoo was earned was you had to be a member for a year and get a one hundred percent from the entire club to get full membership, and all that means is a full member in the globe if. Like the outsiders have been around since one, thousand, nine, hundred, sixty, eight, and they’ve had hundreds of members over the years and any guy who lasted over a year has the same tattoo or have the same tattoo that I’ve got you know and.
00:55:12 – 01:00:08
So Common Sense tells us that that was the case if law enforcement’s definition of my tattoo was correct there will be hundreds of dead cops through from the Tacoma area and the Portland area the we are talking about nobody’s ever and you’d say at some point law for so we target those clubs they’re killing tops left reporting their own training. In a but. That’s just how indepth which is not very in depth we need to look to understand. Truly. The that what they’ve been telling us about Al of motorcycle clubs doesn’t make sense and the reason it doesn’t make sense is because it’s ally. Right, well, I a Lord agent who did have you ever wanted to smack the guys who were working and say and say exactly that why would somebody advertised Tara cop killer in this world nobody in their right mind would do that are you out of your? Are you being silly hero? Did you ever have that impulse to say, Hey, knucklehead knock it. I’ve got. About a hundred hours of law enforcement, outlaw, motorcycle gang training from various training seminars, and every second of every one of those meetings seminars I wanted to do you know and when you know the truth because I believed what they told me when I was a young man going in and that’s why I was so careful about how I came around the. Bend and how I made my decision to become Alamosa number and finally you know bill hang around and go prospect. Do I think? You know. These guys if from the day, I started really spending time with the club and hearing the club members stories about how law enforcement messes with them. The club’s version made more sense than what law enforcement taught me, and then when I got a firsthand chance to see it and experience myself. LS Mike. Okay, there’s more to this story in. That’s why I got involved in the motorcycle world now is prospect at a member and I have some influence or the ability to have influence. I got so heavily involved in the motorcycle rights movement because it was all about protecting the motorcycle club culture from corrupt lot forcement and overly harsh loss. Right. So book again. Is called paint Patriot gang. On the evolution of an outlaw and it a fascinating route I urge everybody to read it and just took in this kind of conversation with Canada not. So scary no vote I do it’s not all about. Necessarily, completely about bid to life in the you talk a little bit about your your upbringing annual influence that you for the had on your I think. It’s a heartwarming part of the story. It’s also one that stopped me in my tracks knowing that could be seen you with dog training videos and no you yellow dog. Then there’s this. Book. I don’t want give too much away but there’s an incident with with the grandfather and dogs they kind of made me go. Oh Wow I mean it shocked me a little bit where I had to put the book down. I said. that. I had be I couldn’t continue read I. said that doesn’t match the Jeff I’ve seen plane with dogs and and training with dogs I mean and that kind of stuff. So I know you’re an animal lover just talk about your grandfather’s influence on you. So, My GRANDPA. Sorry. At Do what he was the coolest man. He was he was an all of his brothers Legit Wild West Cowboys, and in my opinion they were outlaws. My GRANDPA was a share for a while like not just deputy that he was actually sheriff for a while and he was a volunteer firefighter and he’s a farmer and rancher but. The in my opinion, my GRANDPA taught me to be an outlaw because he was now in that incident, you’re talking about in the book is one of the the prime things that I look at to my grandma and yet he was outlawed what made him an outlaw is at that time in the end you gotta understand my grandpa and I think he’d do from reading the book. One of his his passions was was American quarter horses and breeding world-class American quarter horses and. When his passion was threatened. In his livelihood was threatened by a couple of dogs because the owners couldn’t take care of. Their dogs and control in an area. It’s not like this was you know downtown Seattle or or anything like this this? Rural Farmland in southern. Utah grow row ranch, and so you got you know normal laws and then you’ve got ranchers laws in other demo live by as long as they’ve been there and so to me the time.
01:00:08 – 01:05:02
You, know I I dealt with some issues trying to process what I did there in because I have to eliminate, threaten and save my GRANDPA’s livelihood A city boy there was a lot to to deal with because I realize what I did wasn’t legal Matt and I was such a young age. I was really young That was a real moral struggle for me but what I would come to realize over the years as matured is that was the right thing to do. He could have called the cops like the law said you. Would’ve been dead before. Horses would have been injured and dead before the cops. Got You. Now something would have happen negatively. Had we not taken immediate action and and so we took immediate action problem with sobbed over the years I come came to understand why he did that and over the years I absolutely agree with how we handled that situation that day and what’s funny is in Since I moved onto my own ranch I’ve had a similar situation where it was reversed and it was the neighbors. Horse was causing a problem for my my working dogs and putting their lives safety at risk. But what’s different about today than back in one thousand, nine, hundred, eighty two or whatever it was that incident with my Grandpa I had happened. Is. I stood down because had pulled the trigger in limited the horse and solve my problems which had been ongoing and continuous. Put in jail for cruelty to. And I would jail for whatever else even though the animals trespassing on my property in my fist in a lance. Oh. Here we’ve come full circle. What was okay for my GRANDPA was a sheriff. You know I’ve you does outlaw back. That is now. So outlawed the as a man of action and having proved that my entire life I stood there. And I had to allow myself in my own opinion. Victimized on on a minor level, but it was the system and our laws that were forcing me to be the victim because my my only recourse at that point was to you know, call the cops which for the first time in my adult life other professional calls in. I put in a phone, call the cops, and then I went through the civil process and it was a total waste of time in, but the problem has been solved now. Although it. said, it wasted a bunch of my time and a bunch of my money and A bunch of law enforcement resources were having just been outlaw about it and handled it the ranch your way you know my dog. Food while. Be Solved. And I think a lot of ways I, see Demonstration of Code. Grant Code is is and I think he grandfather call the dealing meanness and I think that that was part of his Co. and so you can understand and he’s living by a code. It makes sense to him so that there’s a lot of that you know carry through your whole life and again people the fascinated we’d I urge you to read it Jeff. You’ve got to come back in October when expert comes out. To. Please and I’ll help you this book because I i. I’m not just saying that because you’re against the show is I think it’s an important read it to write a book for the right time for people understand all problems that America faces through this whole idea learning about the allow a motorcycle club is just a side benefit of you’ll get from reading this book So I I, really appreciate you writing I appreciate your time stories and your and your insights into all this stuff because it’s it’s again I think it’s a really important time the method. Thanks for coming, you have a great night and keep in touch and don’t burn up man. Thank you. Talk to you later, bats. By. Episode is brought to you by put me in the story. Put me in the story creates personalized books for kids by taking bestselling children’s picture books and well up characters and allowing you to create personalized books that make your child the star of the story alongside their favorite characters. Save twenty five percent store wide when you click the link on my dog TV Dot Com and use the code save twenty five. Where else sponsored by the lovely lovely Asia. Stop. For Modern irresistible and affordable women’s clothing. Never before has dressing yourself been so easy. loveliest carefully curated selection of apparel accessories outerwear are always on trend and always available at the best prices.
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01:10:05 – 01:10:05